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Where was it tried? My understanding is that even Minneapolis didn't follow through with it.

by panic 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Where was it tried? Chesa Boudin. New York with cashless bail and non-prosecution of petty crimes. That fuck in Chicago. Defund the police was a marquee policy and messaging failure that underlined why radical minorities capturing the Democratic Party cause it to lose elections.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > New York with cashless bail and non-prosecution of petty crimes. What does that have to do with "defund the police"? Bail money doesn't go into their pockets.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    It was part of the police reform initiative. I supported it. But it massively increased the street population of recidivist bastards in a way I didn’t expect.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Conflating "police reform" and "defund the police" is disingenuous.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Conflating "police reform" and "defund the police" is disingenuous In New York they were one and the same. The latter simply representing the most extreme expression of the former. I remember dropping into a leftist conference in Philadelphia years ago where several folks who would become the face of post-Covid police reform were there, including Boudin. At the end of the day they all conceded that their goal was abolishing this, that and the other thing.
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > In New York they were one and the same. As a NY resident: lol. I don't doubt you'll find activists espousing both "defund the police" and "end cash bail" policies at the same time. That doesn't make them the same policy.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > That doesn't make them the same policy Oh, they’re totally different policies. But they’re basically the same politics. And they both generated a backlash, one against messaging (because it was too stupid to implement) and one against policy (because it created more visible crime).
        sapphicsnail 1y ago
        A leftist conference? I don't think actual leftists have much say on policy.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      It was never about the recidivist bastards and always about the normal guy with a job he doesn't want to lose not losing that job when he can't come up with bail for a DUI. At least where I was it was considered kind of a given the recidivist bastards would get out on bail and that the bondsman getting paid really doesn't affect outcomes.
      - jahewson 1y ago
        Bail bonds exist.
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        And yet, there are plenty of people who can't rustle up a couple hundred bucks for them, and wind up in jail for months/years awaiting trial.
        ghushn3 1y ago
        In fact, 70% of jail population is not convicted of a crime. Seven-Zero. Roughly half a million people are in jail despite not being convicted of anything. That's roughly 25% of the incarcerated population in the US. 1/4 people behind bars are (presumed) innocent right now, even if they may later be found guilty. That's a problem. Being in jail for a few weeks or even a few days can totally fuck someone's life over, costing them a job, a relationship, their health, or worse.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It was never about the recidivist bastards and always about the normal guy with a job he doesn't want to lose not losing that job when he can't come up with bail for a DUI And that’s why I supported it. But for every one of the latter there are many of the former because they started cycling through arrests so fast. Keep the recidivist bastard in jail, on the other hand, and they are incapacitated for the time being. I’ll admit I didn’t see the utility of that until it was too late.
- ribosometronome 1y ago
  >>> be angry at those who didn't follow through with promises to severely reduce funding to their police departments in 2020 >>This was tried. It generated a generational backlash against the left as petty crime and visible homelessness rose. >Chesa Boudin. Chesa Boudin is not a police budget, that's a completely unserious nonsequitor. SF's police budget rose throughout the defund the police movement, just not as high as initially allocated. https://abc7news.com/post/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/post/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-depa...
- supplied_demand 1y ago
  ==That fuck in Chicago.== Not sure what this is adding to the discussion, but eliminating cash bail has been a success in Illinois. That’s why you don’t hear the right talking about it anymore. Crime in Chicago has fallen every year since it went into effect. https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/cash-bail-illinois-one-year-later/ https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/cash-bail-illinois-one-...
  - qingcharles 1y ago
    It also allowed those with petty crimes to be released, while those with say, homicide charges, to be held. Previously, if you had lots of liquid money, you could bail out for murder no problem. I was locked up in Chicago with guys that had $50 bail and nobody to pay it for them.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, but if your premise is that people charged with homicide are given pretrial release in the current no-cash-bail system, no, that's not the case. It's possible that's what you're saying too: that the current system, based on risk assessments rather than liquidity, is better than what preceded it (I'd agree).
      - qingcharles 1y ago
        I might have worded it badly? I was trying to say that the system was previously unfair as it allowed violent crimes with long potential sentences bail (if you were rich), while those with petty offenses would be held (because they were poor). I'm not sure if there is a perfect system, since everyone should be given the benefit of potential innocence, and jailing anyone who might end up being acquitted is a problem.
- tptacek 1y ago
  Chicago did not defund its police department.

Where was it tried? My understanding is that even Minneapolis didn't follow through with it.

by panic 1y ago

Where was it tried? My understanding is that even Minneapolis didn't follow through with it.

> Where was it tried? Chesa Boudin. New York with cashless bail and non-prosecution of petty crimes. That fuck in Chicago. Defund the police was a marquee policy and messaging failure that underlined why radical minorities capturing the Democratic Party cause it to lose elections.

ceejayoz 1y ago
> New York with cashless bail and non-prosecution of petty crimes. What does that have to do with "defund the police"? Bail money doesn't go into their pockets.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  It was part of the police reform initiative. I supported it. But it massively increased the street population of recidivist bastards in a way I didn’t expect.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Conflating "police reform" and "defund the police" is disingenuous.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Conflating "police reform" and "defund the police" is disingenuous In New York they were one and the same. The latter simply representing the most extreme expression of the former. I remember dropping into a leftist conference in Philadelphia years ago where several folks who would become the face of post-Covid police reform were there, including Boudin. At the end of the day they all conceded that their goal was abolishing this, that and the other thing.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        > In New York they were one and the same. As a NY resident: lol. I don't doubt you'll find activists espousing both "defund the police" and "end cash bail" policies at the same time. That doesn't make them the same policy.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > That doesn't make them the same policy Oh, they’re totally different policies. But they’re basically the same politics. And they both generated a backlash, one against messaging (because it was too stupid to implement) and one against policy (because it created more visible crime).
      - sapphicsnail 1y ago
        A leftist conference? I don't think actual leftists have much say on policy.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    It was never about the recidivist bastards and always about the normal guy with a job he doesn't want to lose not losing that job when he can't come up with bail for a DUI. At least where I was it was considered kind of a given the recidivist bastards would get out on bail and that the bondsman getting paid really doesn't affect outcomes.
    - jahewson 1y ago
      Bail bonds exist.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        And yet, there are plenty of people who can't rustle up a couple hundred bucks for them, and wind up in jail for months/years awaiting trial.
        ghushn3 1y ago
        In fact, 70% of jail population is not convicted of a crime. Seven-Zero. Roughly half a million people are in jail despite not being convicted of anything. That's roughly 25% of the incarcerated population in the US. 1/4 people behind bars are (presumed) innocent right now, even if they may later be found guilty. That's a problem. Being in jail for a few weeks or even a few days can totally fuck someone's life over, costing them a job, a relationship, their health, or worse.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > It was never about the recidivist bastards and always about the normal guy with a job he doesn't want to lose not losing that job when he can't come up with bail for a DUI And that’s why I supported it. But for every one of the latter there are many of the former because they started cycling through arrests so fast. Keep the recidivist bastard in jail, on the other hand, and they are incapacitated for the time being. I’ll admit I didn’t see the utility of that until it was too late.
ribosometronome 1y ago
>>> be angry at those who didn't follow through with promises to severely reduce funding to their police departments in 2020 >>This was tried. It generated a generational backlash against the left as petty crime and visible homelessness rose. >Chesa Boudin. Chesa Boudin is not a police budget, that's a completely unserious nonsequitor. SF's police budget rose throughout the defund the police movement, just not as high as initially allocated. https://abc7news.com/post/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/post/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-depa...
supplied_demand 1y ago
==That fuck in Chicago.== Not sure what this is adding to the discussion, but eliminating cash bail has been a success in Illinois. That’s why you don’t hear the right talking about it anymore. Crime in Chicago has fallen every year since it went into effect. https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/cash-bail-illinois-one-year-later/ https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/cash-bail-illinois-one-...
- qingcharles 1y ago
  It also allowed those with petty crimes to be released, while those with say, homicide charges, to be held. Previously, if you had lots of liquid money, you could bail out for murder no problem. I was locked up in Chicago with guys that had $50 bail and nobody to pay it for them.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, but if your premise is that people charged with homicide are given pretrial release in the current no-cash-bail system, no, that's not the case. It's possible that's what you're saying too: that the current system, based on risk assessments rather than liquidity, is better than what preceded it (I'd agree).
    - qingcharles 1y ago
      I might have worded it badly? I was trying to say that the system was previously unfair as it allowed violent crimes with long potential sentences bail (if you were rich), while those with petty offenses would be held (because they were poor). I'm not sure if there is a perfect system, since everyone should be given the benefit of potential innocence, and jailing anyone who might end up being acquitted is a problem.
tptacek 1y ago
Chicago did not defund its police department.