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I don't think you can honestly and objectively criticise something you don't truly know. There's still no framework in e.g. Go that comes anywhere close to mat

I don't think you can honestly and objectively criticise something you don't truly know. There's still no framework in e.g. Go that comes anywhere close to matching Django. It's pragmatic, doesn't do too much meta-magic (I still don't "get" Rails), lets you strip away any layers you don't need, etc.

mervz 1y ago
I think Phoenix is very close to Django at fitting that bill.
- bnchrch 1y ago
  Now Phoenix and Elixir are two technologies I love! But theyre admin offering is lacking. (Which is ok today in modern development and things like pgadmin)
  - rollcat 1y ago
    Django Admin is a bit of a trap though ;) it's powerful enough that you can build an entire application with it, custom views and powerful filtering and ACLs and whatnot, it easily gets 80% of your job done with almost nothing but a declarative DSL. But the remaining 20%? Now you've dug yourself a hole with no recourse but a complete rewrite. It's time/money you would've otherwise spent anyway, but that sunken cost fallacy hits hard.
    - globular-toast 1y ago
      Yep. Unfortunately the trap extends further than just the Django admin site itself. ModelForm and generic views are what power the admin site and they're exposed and you're encouraged to use them. Same with the low level crud permissions it creates. Once junior devs start doing the remaining 20% without rewriting you end up with something really difficult to maintain.
      - rollcat 1y ago
        It's not just the junior devs. A client once came to me with something that looked like 99.9% is just ModelForm, some CSS, and money. I should've taken 25% upfront and said no to the increasingly absurd change requests, but oh well.
    - andybak 1y ago
      Oh, I've been disagreeing with this take on the admin for such a long time!
    - gnz11 1y ago
      The Django docs do explicitly state that the admin is just meant for when you need a quick admin dashboard for internal applications. Anything outside of this domain or more complex, you should consider building your own.
    - pkphilip 1y ago
      Many frameworks have the "admin" sections with very similar drawbacks. It gets you 80% of the way there in 20% of the time, but the remaining 20% is very difficult to get done. One framework which does not have this problem - or at least minimises the problem, is the Yii framework for PHP. A very nice and underrated framework
  - POiNTx 1y ago
    https://backpex.live/ https://backpex.live/ is a pretty good Phoenix Admin. Django's admin is still unmatched though.
Induane 1y ago
Sometimes I think it's better to think of rails as a dialect of Ruby.
imiric 1y ago
> There's still no framework in e.g. Go that comes anywhere close to matching Django. I don't think Go is an apt comparison. Its philosophy is to eschew traditional frameworks in favor of relying on the rich standard library as much as possible, and on small external libraries when needed. This does lead to a duplication of effort and bespoke mini-frameworks that only technically have a fraction of the features of a typical framework, but the end result is much simpler, more understandable and flexible. All in a highly performant language with a great ecosystem, packaging, and tooling <3 That said, Django is an amazing framework that has stood the test of time. Like many here, it was one of the projects that kickstarted my web development career. Kudos to the team and community, and here's to another 20! \o/

mervz 1y ago

I think Phoenix is very close to Django at fitting that bill.

bnchrch 1y ago
Now Phoenix and Elixir are two technologies I love! But theyre admin offering is lacking. (Which is ok today in modern development and things like pgadmin)
- rollcat 1y ago
  Django Admin is a bit of a trap though ;) it's powerful enough that you can build an entire application with it, custom views and powerful filtering and ACLs and whatnot, it easily gets 80% of your job done with almost nothing but a declarative DSL. But the remaining 20%? Now you've dug yourself a hole with no recourse but a complete rewrite. It's time/money you would've otherwise spent anyway, but that sunken cost fallacy hits hard.
  - globular-toast 1y ago
    Yep. Unfortunately the trap extends further than just the Django admin site itself. ModelForm and generic views are what power the admin site and they're exposed and you're encouraged to use them. Same with the low level crud permissions it creates. Once junior devs start doing the remaining 20% without rewriting you end up with something really difficult to maintain.
    - rollcat 1y ago
      It's not just the junior devs. A client once came to me with something that looked like 99.9% is just ModelForm, some CSS, and money. I should've taken 25% upfront and said no to the increasingly absurd change requests, but oh well.
  - andybak 1y ago
    Oh, I've been disagreeing with this take on the admin for such a long time!
  - gnz11 1y ago
    The Django docs do explicitly state that the admin is just meant for when you need a quick admin dashboard for internal applications. Anything outside of this domain or more complex, you should consider building your own.
  - pkphilip 1y ago
    Many frameworks have the "admin" sections with very similar drawbacks. It gets you 80% of the way there in 20% of the time, but the remaining 20% is very difficult to get done. One framework which does not have this problem - or at least minimises the problem, is the Yii framework for PHP. A very nice and underrated framework
- POiNTx 1y ago
  https://backpex.live/ https://backpex.live/ is a pretty good Phoenix Admin. Django's admin is still unmatched though.

Induane 1y ago

Sometimes I think it's better to think of rails as a dialect of Ruby.

imiric 1y ago

> There's still no framework in e.g. Go that comes anywhere close to matching Django. I don't think Go is an apt comparison. Its philosophy is to eschew traditional frameworks in favor of relying on the rich standard library as much as possible, and on small external libraries when needed. This does lead to a duplication of effort and bespoke mini-frameworks that only technically have a fraction of the features of a typical framework, but the end result is much simpler, more understandable and flexible. All in a highly performant language with a great ecosystem, packaging, and tooling <3 That said, Django is an amazing framework that has stood the test of time. Like many here, it was one of the projects that kickstarted my web development career. Kudos to the team and community, and here's to another 20! \o/