5 ms·

No, we need to stop using oil and gas and such.

by FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago

MangoToupe 1y ago
Short of the wealthy paying the poor to not use oil and gas, that's obviously not gonna happen. What's plan b?
- nrjames 1y ago
  India seems to be converting to solar without external pressure. https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/indias-solar-boom-keeps-coal-use-check-so-far-2025-maguire-2025-06-10/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/indias-solar-boo...
  - dartharva 1y ago
    That's because India has to. Domestic demands are huge and India's coal isn't very high in quality. Not to mention coal power is largely state-controlled and doesn't allow for much private frolicking. It's quite the opposite situation than the US, where coal is extremely high-quality and private player participation is unrestricted.
    - matthewdgreen 1y ago
      Almost all new energy construction is non-coal. Coal has collapsed even here in the US, and the current administration is unlikely to seriously change the trajectory. Gas is increasing, but mostly here in the US, but production is dropping again.
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    > is setting the stage for a potential drop in annual coal-fired power output I'm not holding my breath. I'm happy they saw a slight reduction in oil and gas use, though.
- justinrubek 1y ago
  Yes, it can happen.
- Scarblac 1y ago
  Any alternatives are way further into fantasy land than plan A.
- ZeroGravitas 1y ago
  That seems like a cynical though broadly accurate description of carbon pricing, which are in place around the world and shown to be one of the more effective interventions. They are technically also paying the rich (and crucially the companies that supply things for both the rich and poor) to not use oil and gas too.
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    I mean directly. I have little faith in carbon pricing as anything but a grift.
    - drdrey 1y ago
      if you don't price carbon, then emitting carbon is free (you just priced it at $0)
      - MangoToupe 1y ago
        We simply don't have the market mechanisms to price carbon in any rational sense. Certainly not internationally.
        ZeroGravitas 1y ago
        If you mean across borders, than the EU CBAM is already driving the installation of renewables in countries outside the EU in advance of being priced next year.
- adrianN 1y ago
  I suppose the alternative is making the alternatives cheaper. For example wind and solar for electricity are quite cheap.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  Invest in whole house oxygen generators.
newsclues 1y ago
What are the trade offs for that? The entire point is that the global climate is a complex system and changing things may have unintended consequences.
- noiv 1y ago
  > changing things may have unintended consequences. Proved by reality, that's why they propose to reduce or even undo human emissions.
  - newsclues 1y ago
    It's a transition, not a reduction. Human energy usage is going up. It's just shifting, what types and where, energy is generated. And those shifts, have tradeoffs. Want cleaner air in developed urban areas via EVs? ok cool, but the tradeoff is more mines elsewhere to supply those minerals, more batteries and metals for charging infrastructure. There is no free lunch in the energy world, solar and wind have tradeoffs.
    - SlowTao 1y ago
      Yep, currently attempting to move from a carbon economy to a metals based on.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
adornKey 1y ago
Or we should start reading books about atmosphere physics. Taking a look at the infrared spectrum and checking out what's really going on there is worth it... https://co2coalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VW-and-Happer-Picture1.png https://co2coalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VW-and-H...
- mritterhoff 1y ago
  "In 2021 the CO2 Coalition submitted a public comment opposing climate change disclosure rules by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. The Coalition asserted "There is no 'climate crisis' and there is no evidence that there will be one," and further "Carbon dioxide, the gas purported to be the cause of catastrophic warming, is not toxic and does no harm." Both assertions are at odds with the scientific consensus on climate change." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CO2_Coalition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CO2_Coalition
  - adornKey 1y ago
    The spectrum still is like it is. Even Cancel culture won't change it. Please read some papers about the subject... I was pretty shocked to see what kind of quality you find there... (Nothing but a little bit of quibbling, and also a lot of name calling...). There is a reason why politics shuts down some institutions... Mainly those that have some kind of consensus, that doesn't have any foundation in physics. It's just a sect... Strong believes - and no science...
    - defrost 1y ago
      Low PPM CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere affects IR in the atmosphere much as thin steel plate affects a bullet fired 5,000 yards through air .. it absorbs and scatters despite being a 'mere' PPM. ( Carbon Dioxide Absorbs and Re-emits Infrared Radiation - https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/carbon-dioxide-absorbs-and-re-emits-infrared-radiation https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/carbo... ) You want science, testable and repeatable science? Start with, say, Thermal Equilibrium of the Atmosphere with a Given Distribution of Relative Humidity (1967) https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/atsc/24/3/1520-0469_1967_024_0241_teotaw_2_0_co_2.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/atsc/24/3/1520-04... described as "the most influential studies of all time" ( https://www.carbonbrief.org/prof-john-mitchell-how-a-1967-study-greatly-influenced-climate-change-science/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/prof-john-mitchell-how-a-1967-st... ) There are others: https://www.carbonbrief.org/the-most-influential-climate-change-papers-of-all-time/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/the-most-influential-climate-cha... The real world physics of doubling a low CO2 concentration in representative air samples has been performed many a time .. it works as the cited paper says .. trapping more of heat energy radiated upwards by the land and sea that would otherwise diffuse outwards.

No, we need to stop using oil and gas and such.

MangoToupe 1y ago

Short of the wealthy paying the poor to not use oil and gas, that's obviously not gonna happen. What's plan b?

nrjames 1y ago
India seems to be converting to solar without external pressure. https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/indias-solar-boom-keeps-coal-use-check-so-far-2025-maguire-2025-06-10/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/indias-solar-boo...
- dartharva 1y ago
  That's because India has to. Domestic demands are huge and India's coal isn't very high in quality. Not to mention coal power is largely state-controlled and doesn't allow for much private frolicking. It's quite the opposite situation than the US, where coal is extremely high-quality and private player participation is unrestricted.
  - matthewdgreen 1y ago
    Almost all new energy construction is non-coal. Coal has collapsed even here in the US, and the current administration is unlikely to seriously change the trajectory. Gas is increasing, but mostly here in the US, but production is dropping again.
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  > is setting the stage for a potential drop in annual coal-fired power output I'm not holding my breath. I'm happy they saw a slight reduction in oil and gas use, though.
justinrubek 1y ago
Yes, it can happen.
Scarblac 1y ago
Any alternatives are way further into fantasy land than plan A.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
That seems like a cynical though broadly accurate description of carbon pricing, which are in place around the world and shown to be one of the more effective interventions. They are technically also paying the rich (and crucially the companies that supply things for both the rich and poor) to not use oil and gas too.
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  I mean directly. I have little faith in carbon pricing as anything but a grift.
  - drdrey 1y ago
    if you don't price carbon, then emitting carbon is free (you just priced it at $0)
    - MangoToupe 1y ago
      We simply don't have the market mechanisms to price carbon in any rational sense. Certainly not internationally.
      - ZeroGravitas 1y ago
        If you mean across borders, than the EU CBAM is already driving the installation of renewables in countries outside the EU in advance of being priced next year.
adrianN 1y ago
I suppose the alternative is making the alternatives cheaper. For example wind and solar for electricity are quite cheap.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
Invest in whole house oxygen generators.

newsclues 1y ago

What are the trade offs for that? The entire point is that the global climate is a complex system and changing things may have unintended consequences.

noiv 1y ago
> changing things may have unintended consequences. Proved by reality, that's why they propose to reduce or even undo human emissions.
- newsclues 1y ago
  It's a transition, not a reduction. Human energy usage is going up. It's just shifting, what types and where, energy is generated. And those shifts, have tradeoffs. Want cleaner air in developed urban areas via EVs? ok cool, but the tradeoff is more mines elsewhere to supply those minerals, more batteries and metals for charging infrastructure. There is no free lunch in the energy world, solar and wind have tradeoffs.
  - SlowTao 1y ago
    Yep, currently attempting to move from a carbon economy to a metals based on.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

adornKey 1y ago

Or we should start reading books about atmosphere physics. Taking a look at the infrared spectrum and checking out what's really going on there is worth it... https://co2coalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VW-and-Happer-Picture1.png https://co2coalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VW-and-H...

mritterhoff 1y ago
"In 2021 the CO2 Coalition submitted a public comment opposing climate change disclosure rules by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. The Coalition asserted "There is no 'climate crisis' and there is no evidence that there will be one," and further "Carbon dioxide, the gas purported to be the cause of catastrophic warming, is not toxic and does no harm." Both assertions are at odds with the scientific consensus on climate change." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CO2_Coalition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CO2_Coalition
- adornKey 1y ago
  The spectrum still is like it is. Even Cancel culture won't change it. Please read some papers about the subject... I was pretty shocked to see what kind of quality you find there... (Nothing but a little bit of quibbling, and also a lot of name calling...). There is a reason why politics shuts down some institutions... Mainly those that have some kind of consensus, that doesn't have any foundation in physics. It's just a sect... Strong believes - and no science...
  - defrost 1y ago
    Low PPM CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere affects IR in the atmosphere much as thin steel plate affects a bullet fired 5,000 yards through air .. it absorbs and scatters despite being a 'mere' PPM. ( Carbon Dioxide Absorbs and Re-emits Infrared Radiation - https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/carbon-dioxide-absorbs-and-re-emits-infrared-radiation https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/how-climate-works/carbo... ) You want science, testable and repeatable science? Start with, say, Thermal Equilibrium of the Atmosphere with a Given Distribution of Relative Humidity (1967) https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/atsc/24/3/1520-0469_1967_024_0241_teotaw_2_0_co_2.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/atsc/24/3/1520-04... described as "the most influential studies of all time" ( https://www.carbonbrief.org/prof-john-mitchell-how-a-1967-study-greatly-influenced-climate-change-science/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/prof-john-mitchell-how-a-1967-st... ) There are others: https://www.carbonbrief.org/the-most-influential-climate-change-papers-of-all-time/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/the-most-influential-climate-cha... The real world physics of doubling a low CO2 concentration in representative air samples has been performed many a time .. it works as the cited paper says .. trapping more of heat energy radiated upwards by the land and sea that would otherwise diffuse outwards.