5 ms·

EU also tariffed Chinese cars out of the market.

by rafaelmn 1y ago

vkou 1y ago
It's difficult to compete with automation.
- mjmas 1y ago
  Or slave labour
  - newsclues 1y ago
    Or IP theft
    - jaggs 1y ago
      Yeah because the Western auto makers were developing advanced electric cars for decades before the Chinese started their program. Good catch. /s
    - patrickhogan1 1y ago
      We need to move past these debates or we’ll slip further behind. China is repeating Japan’s trajectory: early products may have been rough, but Toyota grew into an innovation powerhouse. No one questions the Prius’s impact today. At some point, we need to stop talking about what we did in high school 10 years ago and start figuring out how to make everything we interact with better by tapping into the collective intelligence of 8 billion people.
  - jaggs 1y ago
    Oh come on, you can do better than that, surely? :) Have you seen the level of robotic automation in Chinese car factories? Not sure what universe you live in...
- aetherspawn 1y ago
  In my country China has been selling cars below market value (for years now) to basically run everyone else out of business. I don’t think it’s anything to do with being cheaper to build and more to do with they’re selling at a loss, which they don’t care because centralised government, and a smart one at that, and then playing the long game waiting for all local manufacturing to go bankrupt before they hike the prices.
  - patrickhogan1 1y ago
    What country and what models were they selling? A UBS teardown estimated the BYD Seal’s (premium version) gross margin at roughly 16%. These cars are selling for $50k in Thailand. These data points suggest BYD is leveraging vertical integration, not selling the Seal at a loss. I used to think the same way until this year on a trip to Asia. I was genuinely surprised by the range of new Chinese cars. Not just the low-cost models, but truly impressive, high-end vehicles with super innovative designs. I am very pro local manufacturing. But as a builder at heart, I have to admire the builder innovation energy coming out of Chinese auto companies. This wasn't just centrally planned... Its clear innovation.
    - maxglute 1y ago
      At end of the day, Chinese companies still have to compete with each other which drives price down (so much so that CCP recently stepping in to try to make it less cut throat). Granted strategic industries like auto that eventually coalesce into oligopolies might coordinate / collude to set prices better, but IMO PRC manufacturing is too big for that - 20 country sized provinces trying to build their own champions. What we have seen is PRC companies start climbing value chain, i.e. anker going from entry to premium tier, but every step along the way some other Chinese company comes along and fills out the low end.
  - maxglute 1y ago
    > playing the long game waiting for all local manufacturing to go bankrupt before they hike the prices. This strange conspiracy theory considering PRC cars sell for 40-80%+ markup vs domestic market. Struggle to think of single sector where cheap Chinese entrants have hiked prices after eliminating competition. What has happened is they eliminate competitors and prices stays low because they're good at building things cheaply, while keeping things cheap also prevents new competitors. Like they've been exporting cheap / value goods for 20+ years now. When are they going to jack up the price?
- v5v3 1y ago
  And labour costs that are 20% or so lower.
moltar 1y ago
Doesn’t seem to stop them. I see more and more on the roads in Portugal. Even started appearing in car rentals recently.
- eisa01 1y ago
  It was only EVs…
  - piva00 1y ago
    There are BYDs everywhere in Scandinavia, doesn't look like Chinese EVs have been tariffed out of the market at all.
    - martinpw 1y ago
      Well for a start Norway is not in the EU and therefore does not have tariffs on Chinese EVs, so would not expect any impact in that part of Scandinavia at least. Also the tariffs are higher on pure EVs. Plugin hybrids have a lower tariff. As a result, BYD plugin hybrid sales are growing faster than pure electrics in the EU: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinese-ev-makers-sell-more-plugin-hybrids-eu-avoid-tariffs-research-firm-says-2025-05-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chines...
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- LtdJorge 1y ago
  This is the first year I've seen BYD cars in Spain.
- v5v3 1y ago
  They have added tariffs so the pricea of Chinese EVs cannot be ridiculously low. But they are still competitive to the local competition and so will sell. As a new entrant, they will be seeking to establish their brands on the roads so may have loss leaders too.
ViewTrick1002 1y ago
The EU tariffs are based on the portion of cost they calculated to be state aid. Ensuring fair competition. We can always debate exactly how fair it is, and if the European companies would be forced to become better if competing without a tariff shielding them. But the EU tariffs are nothing like the 100% tariff Biden instituted to completely shut Chinese cars out of the American market.
v5v3 1y ago
Not a case of 'tariffed Chinese cars out of the market', more tariffed so they are priced similar to the market. If they had tariffed Chinese cars out of the market, there would be a trade war between them.
RamblingCTO 1y ago
I don't think this is true. Chinese automakers are fine and increasing market share here in Germany.
- rafaelmn 1y ago
  I think the Chinese are losing money with the tarrifs but trying to get market share and the plan around tariffs is bringing assembly to Europe like all the other carmakers have to in order to work around the tarrifs. If there were no tarrifs you would see a flood of cheap EVs around you - like 10k€ city cars.

EU also tariffed Chinese cars out of the market.

vkou 1y ago

It's difficult to compete with automation.

mjmas 1y ago
Or slave labour
- newsclues 1y ago
  Or IP theft
  - jaggs 1y ago
    Yeah because the Western auto makers were developing advanced electric cars for decades before the Chinese started their program. Good catch. /s
  - patrickhogan1 1y ago
    We need to move past these debates or we’ll slip further behind. China is repeating Japan’s trajectory: early products may have been rough, but Toyota grew into an innovation powerhouse. No one questions the Prius’s impact today. At some point, we need to stop talking about what we did in high school 10 years ago and start figuring out how to make everything we interact with better by tapping into the collective intelligence of 8 billion people.
- jaggs 1y ago
  Oh come on, you can do better than that, surely? :) Have you seen the level of robotic automation in Chinese car factories? Not sure what universe you live in...
aetherspawn 1y ago
In my country China has been selling cars below market value (for years now) to basically run everyone else out of business. I don’t think it’s anything to do with being cheaper to build and more to do with they’re selling at a loss, which they don’t care because centralised government, and a smart one at that, and then playing the long game waiting for all local manufacturing to go bankrupt before they hike the prices.
- patrickhogan1 1y ago
  What country and what models were they selling? A UBS teardown estimated the BYD Seal’s (premium version) gross margin at roughly 16%. These cars are selling for $50k in Thailand. These data points suggest BYD is leveraging vertical integration, not selling the Seal at a loss. I used to think the same way until this year on a trip to Asia. I was genuinely surprised by the range of new Chinese cars. Not just the low-cost models, but truly impressive, high-end vehicles with super innovative designs. I am very pro local manufacturing. But as a builder at heart, I have to admire the builder innovation energy coming out of Chinese auto companies. This wasn't just centrally planned... Its clear innovation.
  - maxglute 1y ago
    At end of the day, Chinese companies still have to compete with each other which drives price down (so much so that CCP recently stepping in to try to make it less cut throat). Granted strategic industries like auto that eventually coalesce into oligopolies might coordinate / collude to set prices better, but IMO PRC manufacturing is too big for that - 20 country sized provinces trying to build their own champions. What we have seen is PRC companies start climbing value chain, i.e. anker going from entry to premium tier, but every step along the way some other Chinese company comes along and fills out the low end.
- maxglute 1y ago
  > playing the long game waiting for all local manufacturing to go bankrupt before they hike the prices. This strange conspiracy theory considering PRC cars sell for 40-80%+ markup vs domestic market. Struggle to think of single sector where cheap Chinese entrants have hiked prices after eliminating competition. What has happened is they eliminate competitors and prices stays low because they're good at building things cheaply, while keeping things cheap also prevents new competitors. Like they've been exporting cheap / value goods for 20+ years now. When are they going to jack up the price?
v5v3 1y ago
And labour costs that are 20% or so lower.

moltar 1y ago

Doesn’t seem to stop them. I see more and more on the roads in Portugal. Even started appearing in car rentals recently.

eisa01 1y ago
It was only EVs…
- piva00 1y ago
  There are BYDs everywhere in Scandinavia, doesn't look like Chinese EVs have been tariffed out of the market at all.
  - martinpw 1y ago
    Well for a start Norway is not in the EU and therefore does not have tariffs on Chinese EVs, so would not expect any impact in that part of Scandinavia at least. Also the tariffs are higher on pure EVs. Plugin hybrids have a lower tariff. As a result, BYD plugin hybrid sales are growing faster than pure electrics in the EU: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinese-ev-makers-sell-more-plugin-hybrids-eu-avoid-tariffs-research-firm-says-2025-05-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chines...
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
LtdJorge 1y ago
This is the first year I've seen BYD cars in Spain.
v5v3 1y ago
They have added tariffs so the pricea of Chinese EVs cannot be ridiculously low. But they are still competitive to the local competition and so will sell. As a new entrant, they will be seeking to establish their brands on the roads so may have loss leaders too.

ViewTrick1002 1y ago

The EU tariffs are based on the portion of cost they calculated to be state aid. Ensuring fair competition. We can always debate exactly how fair it is, and if the European companies would be forced to become better if competing without a tariff shielding them. But the EU tariffs are nothing like the 100% tariff Biden instituted to completely shut Chinese cars out of the American market.

v5v3 1y ago

Not a case of 'tariffed Chinese cars out of the market', more tariffed so they are priced similar to the market. If they had tariffed Chinese cars out of the market, there would be a trade war between them.

RamblingCTO 1y ago

I don't think this is true. Chinese automakers are fine and increasing market share here in Germany.

rafaelmn 1y ago
I think the Chinese are losing money with the tarrifs but trying to get market share and the plan around tariffs is bringing assembly to Europe like all the other carmakers have to in order to work around the tarrifs. If there were no tarrifs you would see a flood of cheap EVs around you - like 10k€ city cars.