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Fine dining restaurants researching guests to make their dinner unforgettable
- steveBK123 1y agoSocial Credit Score, but privatized
- kube-system 1y agoOf which, the name comes from the US concept of “credit score” which was always privatized.
- yieldcrv 1y agoAmericans only care that the organization that can kill and arrest isn’t controlling all facets of life But are tolerant that corporations do the exact same things in their society
- NoPicklez 1y agoHow is it a credit score? The restaurant isn't stopping anyone from coming in, but trying to personalise the experience to them.
- pseingatl 1y agoJust like China's social credit system.
- bigyabai 1y agoWell sure, but for private enterprise.
- ethan_smith 1y agoThere's a fundamental difference - restaurants checking if you like wine on Instagram to enhance service is optional and consequence-free, while China's system is mandatory with significant legal and financial penalties.
- steveBK123 1y agoSurely once this becomes the norm and more business do it, it will only ever be used for good.. right.. ?
- bluescrn 1y agoUntil they start denying people service because they expressed support for the wrong political party or took the wrong side on a divisive social issue.
- borski 1y ago[dead]
- 542354234235 1y agoOr poisoning the food of certain people based off their social media. We can speculate all day on things that aren't happening.
- general1726 1y agoThat's like wishful thinking that Youtube Premium is not going to have ads when it was being first implemented. It has ads now.
- satvikpendem 1y agoTheir social credit system doesn't actually exist in the way most people think it does, it was a top down mandate that each province was expected to implement in their own way, often without coordination. https://youtu.be/Kqov6F00KMc https://youtu.be/Kqov6F00KMc
- borski 1y agoExcept nothing like it? This article isn’t about filtering guests out, but about creating additional tailored experiences to those who do attend.
- general1726 1y agoRoad to hell is paved with good intentions.
- borski 1y agoAnd the road to heaven is paved by cynics? :)
- alganet 1y agoIt is expected that filtering based on digital content will become a thing for a while. It's one of those obvious, but misguided, uses of recent technologies. I don't know about restaurants, but in regards to other kinds of silos, it is likely that those filters will go down once quality data availability becomes a problem. In the restaurant analogy, you can say that if the salloon is empty, they'll let people in because they can't survive without them.
- NoPicklez 1y agoThey aren't not letting them in...
- alganet 1y agoI don't know what to say. Please, read again, with a more abstract mindset this time.
- NoPicklez 1y agoOr better yet, write a comment that's less abstract and more to your point. There is no filtering of people, its just looking at what people's tastes might be.
- alganet 1y agoI've chosen an abstraction level that I find appropriate for several different contexts that the article might apply to, including the most obvious one (just plain restaurants). I don't have much to work with here.
- allears 1y agoI would never eat at a restaurant that would let people like me in. (Thanks, Groucho)
- prasadjoglekar 1y agoThe title seems ominous but the article itself is about how a fancy restaurant will go out of it's way to make you feel special. They're perusing your social media for clues. In the past your spouse or kid would call and let the maitre'd know it was special; now I guess it's a job for someone on staff.
- fnord77 1y agoauthor doesn't understand the definition of "vetting" which is par for the course for sfgate/chronicle
- steveBK123 1y agoUntil some YC backed SaaS LLM AI automates the process and it becomes table stakes. Then they find other uses for it..
- hungmung 1y agoI'm waiting for fully automated writing style recognition that finds all your throwaway accounts and sends you a shakedown letter.
- satvikpendem 1y agoReproducing Hacker News writing style fingerprinting, by antirez of Redis fame https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43705632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43705632
- steveBK123 1y agoIt’s really great that the most successful people in Silicon Valley disregard the social implications of their work. Arguably that’s what makes them so successful.
- satvikpendem 1y agoThis was possible before, as the post shows with a previous HN post, nothing to do with Silicon Valley.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoGood luck with that. Pretty much the only social media I participate in, is ... here. I guess the Bay Area might take HN seriously, but I live in NY.
- Spivak 1y agoThe example in the article is about getting to know your patrons so no social presence would be fine, but for what you're talking about with actual filtering no social presence would be an immediate rejection so I wouldn't be so smug.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoNot smug. I just don’t do social media. I know many folks, with lots of money, that are similar to me. If SMBs want to reject us, because we aren’t posting every meal on TikTok, then they only have themselves to blame.
- vntok 1y agoWhat does being rich have anything to do with this? You seem to think SMB rejecting you is only a problem for them, have you considered that them rejecting you also means that you don't get service from them?
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoHey listen. Sorry if what I wrote, offended. Didn’t mean to. So we’re done.
- shiftpgdn 1y agoThat's ok, you'll get the same treatment everyone else got before they started this trend. "Normies" with their lives on the standard socials will get extra attention or special treatment at no detriment to you.
- EA-3167 1y agoLike many here, before I read the article I assumed this was intended to be some sort of filtering mechanism... which is a bit dystopian, but IMO the truth is much MUCH more bizarre. We're talking about a fancy restaurant that researches you and your social media to better cater to you and make you feel "special". I think I'd prefer that this just be an extension of the velvet rope, bouncers have been around for ages, but this feels genuinely creepy. > “The information is used as a precursor to gain more of an understanding of who our guests are,” general manager Akeel Shah explained to SFGATE. “We may not even use the information, but it gives us a better way to tailor the experience and make it memorable.” Eewwww, no. Just no. It really feels like someone watched 'The Menu', missed the entire point of the movie, and just thought "Hey wouldn't it be neat if WE knew everything about our customers before they arrived?"
- volleygman180 1y agoI haven't seen The Menu, but try watching The Bear instead. They demonstrate this level-of-service & mentality and it's much more sincere than you think.
- EA-3167 1y agoThe Menu is... overly sincere, I won't spoil it, but it's the "Restaurant as cult environment" movie. In fact the question of lacking sincerity is framed as "the audience casually disregards the immense effort and dedication requires to achieve what you demand." ...Now that's probably using restaurants as a metaphor for the film industry, but either way the point holds. I'm not put off by insincerity, it's forced, false intimacy as a product or a service goal that bothers me. Good food, good (not fawning) service is more than enough for me, I don't need this kind of race-to-the-bottom Michelin stars seem to inspire.
- ksaun 1y agoSpecifically, the episode "Forks," in season 2. IMO, this episode can be enjoyed by someone otherwise unfamiliar with the show.
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- dceddia 1y agoThese comments are such a great pointer to the way outrage is engineered.
- fsflover 1y agoCan you elaborate?
- vicurve 1y agoYou know how you sometimes read a title or a topic and you can infer the kind of commentary a particular topic will have? Even going so far as to expect words like “enshittification” to be used for both stating a point as well as for in-group signaling? Sort of like how opinions are front-loaded even if the article was read? (And very often the opinions are things we’ve heard before from many other people, this is a given). Well, we’ve entered a period in manufactured outrage on the internet where an audience is primed ahead of time with talking points and perspectives that are deemed allowed, and then these reflexes are triggered over and over by the same kind of articles. And it’s the frenzy that counts. It used to be confined to FB and other places but the average commenter has changed and so the average commentary has changed. Articles are increasingly becoming rage bait, moreso than clickbait. I do not know what the appeal is yet but I imagine it’s some mixture of impulsivity that online commenting has enabled, combined with commenters thinking their take is valid/important/whatever. Maybe narcissistic but I can’t say for sure. At any rate, it’s another good way to destroy a community - especially one with self reinforcing mechanism like voting that basically ensures you’re on rails (with apologies to dhh)
- dceddia 1y agoThe title implies (well, I'd say explicitly states with the word "vetting") that restaurants are trying to filter guests, maybe to avoid troublesome ones with uncouth posts online or something. And many of the comments are replying to that interpretation, based on the unfairness suggested in the title. It's not only clickbait, it's outrage bait, designed to spark anger. The article itself is about how restaurants have gone above and beyond for some guests where they've been able to tell from their social media that they're celebrating a special occasion or some other thing like that. To make the guests' experience better and memorable. There's a privacy angle to this, should restaurants do that, slippery slope, etc etc... but many of the comments aren't talking about that. They're responding to the inflammatory title. I don't think we often get such a clear picture into the why behind online outrage and how clearly manufactured it can often be. I think it's easy to believe people are angry for a good reason, to take the anger "on good faith" in some sense. In this case, with the title being so far from the article, it's clear to see what's going on. And makes one wonder about the rest of the outrage out there.
- renewiltord 1y agoHaha this is fantastic. I suppose we must have been uninteresting guests to these places because we didn't get this degree of personalization but the food was great. A lot of these 3 Mich experiences are experiences and not just a dining alone thing so I totally get it. Fun stuff!
- joenot443 1y agoHonestly, this just seems like really creative and earnest hospitality. To summarize the somewhat fluffy piece - > Kirk also has a gigantic database of each guest — about 115,000 people — and knows how many times they’ve dined at Lazy Bear since it first opened as a supper club in 2009. She then dives into social media and finds extra information that is publicly available to get a sense of who the guests are before they come in. Finally, she puts all the data she’s gathered into a color-coded Google document that every member of the team, front and back of house, studies. “We get hundreds of emails a day, and the intimate details that some people are willing to share, sometimes we’re like ‘Holy crap. I can’t believe you told us that,’” Booth said. “But then there’s the fun, the literal joy, our team feels when they get to make these special touches with those details.” -- That sounds great to me! I think some commenters are imagining a kind of Black Mirror meets Berghain meets social credit scenario, but it seems like really none of those things. Cynically, one could perhaps paint it as another clever way for Bay Area folks to convert capital into emotionally emulated human experiences, though even amongst that list I'd consider it one of the more wholesome.
- borski 1y agoI completely agree with you.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- jqpabc123 1y agoSeems like the potential start of a dystopian nightmare to me. Wouldn't be better for all concerned if a 2 star restaurant worked at providing better food and service instead of privacy invasion and exploitation of the vain?
- AznHisoka 1y agoThere are exactly 2 restaurants I recommend to people, and invite family/friends to when they’re visiting. Absolutely none of these restaurants know who I am, do anything special for me, or even know my favorite dishes. The only thing they have in common is they consistently make delicious tasting food. And they probably focus a lot on doing that. Its that simple.
- CoastalCoder 1y agoI assume you're referring to Jacques Imo's in New Orleans, then :)
- peferron 1y agoWould you also recommend these 2 restaurants if they ignored you for 30 minutes before taking your order, then brought your drinks late after you've already finished your meal? There's a lot more to a good restaurant experience than consistently making delicious tasting food. It's definitely not that simple.
- AznHisoka 1y agoI would not but those are table stakes for any restaurant, that 99% of all places I go already do.
- zacharycohn 1y agoFor people who go to these restaurants, this is better service. You wouldn't find this happening at Red Robin. This is what they are paying for. If it's not for you, that's fine.
- smitelli 1y agoI gotta say, I don't have the right personality traits to enjoy this kind of personal attention a lot of the time. I've had experiences where the counter staff at my daily breakfast place started to recognize me and know what "usual" my order was going to be without my having to say it... and it really weirded me out more than anything else. Sometimes I just want to be a faceless nobody, forgotten day after day by the businesses I visit and the public spaces I navigate.
- satvikpendem 1y agoIf you go so often that people remember you, I mean, what do you expect, that they somehow block the memory of you from their mind?
- mingus88 1y agoYeah I’m heavily introverted and feel the same way. It establishes a kind of social pressure that if I fail to hold up my side of the relationship I just get anxious
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> I don't have the right personality traits to enjoy this kind of personal attention a lot of the time Have friends who work at the Four Seasons. This—low service interaction—is a common type of personalised attention patrons want. I don’t think there is a social media cue for it. But even as someone who’s fairly extroverted, I got a note indicating I should be left alone if dining alone and reading.
- ufmace 1y agoYeah I get what you mean. I think I'd be a lot more weirded out than delighted if a restaurant I was going to stalked my social media (such as it exists at all), attempted to deduce things I would like from it, and presented me those things at a meal.
- rglover 1y agoSo this is basically a modern approach to Danny Meyer's (Union Square Hospitality Group [1]) "collecting the dots" he described in his book Setting the Table [2]. His suggestion was to have staff listen to conversations (and have conversations with guests) and then record any interesting "dots" like a child having a graduation coming up or an anniversary just around the corner. That way on their next visit the staff could be well-prepared. Click-bait headline makes you think otherwise, but this is just standard hospitality stuff. [1] https://www.ushg.com/ https://www.ushg.com/ [2] https://www.amazon.com/Setting-Table-Transforming-Hospitality-Business/dp/0060742763 https://www.amazon.com/Setting-Table-Transforming-Hospitalit...
- bapak 1y agoI don't know if the times have changed, but if the staff at the restaurant I've been twice knows something I did not tell them, I would not be particularly comfortable with that.
- dfxm12 1y agoYou (the general you) tell the world a lot of things that can be looked up via your email address. Most restaurants take reservations through a system that asks for your email address. I was at a restaurant a while back and looked over at the hostess' iPad. It had my Twitter avatar on it. I never told them my Twitter handle, but it is associated with the email I used. Do public musings count as telling someone something? Maybe the next restaurant you (the personal you) go to will look up your email address, find this post and just serve you food.
- maxerickson 1y agoSo how do we people that don't like it get the restaurant to recognize that reacting to our Twitter is making the experience worse for us? The defense is that it's to make the experience better, the reaction is that it won't...
- dfxm12 1y ago
- satvikpendem 1y agoIt's funny to read these comments, of course HN would react this way but since the vast majority of restaurant patrons are so-called normies, it doesn't make much sense to cater to HNers. In fact, most normal people actually prefer that restaurants know their interests and cater to them, it leads to their higher satisfaction and makes the restaurant experience (which includes more than just the taste of the food, for most people at least) more memorable overall.
- sublinear 1y agoI don't see what's so normal about any of this. In the past your friends would just mention a few hints while making the reservation... and people still do this now. If they need to scan your social media, that speaks volumes about how you socialize and the quality of those interactions. Plenty of "normal" people don't want this either. The thoughts mean more coming from your friends than a creepy restaurant.
- cyberge99 1y agoI wonder if there’s ever been a case of mistaken identity. A bear lover instead of a penguin lover for example.
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoI’m genuinely confused by people who find it creepy that their public social media be scanned and analysed. You made it public!
- sublinear 1y agoThe creepy part isn't what, but why. The article later mentions a place that is "old school" and actually talks to their patrons. If the goal is to attract and keep patrons, especially at a high end restaurant where details matter, I think some formalities are still reasonably expected.
- satvikpendem 1y ago
- yapyap 1y agoReplacing real intimacy to a paid service, neat. (imagine I’m the dog sitting in the burning house saying this, it’s sarcasm)
- astrange 1y agoGood opportunity to learn about SingleThread, which is a 90s-style throwback to when it was impossible to learn anything about Japan so people just made things up. Like, they call their customers "chairman of the board" because they just heard a random word somewhere? Japanese customer service ("omotenashi") is mostly about not listening to your customers. You get exactly what they want to give you and that's it. If you have a dietary restriction they may just kick you out because they won't/can't change the menu.
- op00to 1y agoJapanese customer service (“omotenas”) emphasizes anticipating needs and delivering respectful, consistent service, not improvisation. It can feel rigid (no menu changes), but it’s not about ignoring or dominating it customers. If a place can accommodate a food sensitivity, they usually will. If they truly can’t, they’ll tell you clearly rather than risk doing it wrong. It’s a cultural focus on doing things properly and fairly, not a lack of care or some sort of holier-than-thou feeling.
- astrange 1y agoYes, the dietary restriction thing has become less of an issue, as there's more immigrants/tourists and more interest in vegan food recently. But Japanese businesses can be very risk-avoidant, so they're relatively happy to not make a sale if it could possibly cause any trouble, compared to what Westerners might expect.
- Hnrobert42 1y agoPrivacy concerns aside, I would be mortified if a restaurant did something special for me. I don't want extra attention. I don't want to have to pretend to be excited about a beverage I don't really care for or a gift I will just throw away. Now if you will excuse, I see some clouds at which I need to shake my cane.
- CoastalCoder 1y agoWhat if their special thing for you was to treat you like a truly genetic customer? I.e., like what Leslie Knope did for Run Swanson on his birthday.
- joshstrange 1y ago> I.e., like what Leslie Knope did for Run Swanson on his birthday. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apg09bolUIc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apg09bolUIc
- magicalhippo 1y agoMany moons ago I was celebrating an anniversary with my parents and sister at a smallish, but very good, restaurant downtown. As we were chatting while waiting for the dessert, the whole restaurant started singing "Happy Birthday", as the waiter (and owner) came with the dessert, sparkler and all. I sooo wanted to just disappear. Turned out my mom had told the waiter/owner about the occasion, and he had unbeknownst to my mom gotten all the other guests in on it. Nice thought, just totally not my thing.
- maxbond 1y agoDidn't worry, they'll find this comment and stick you at an okay booth, provide okay service, and pretend not to recognize you next time you come in. It'll be perfect.
- fragmede 1y agoDo you also give a fake name to the barista at Starbucks so they don't track you? Other restaurants can't even be bothered to do that much personalization, and just give you a number (and treat you like one).
- userbinator 1y agoIt must be emphasised that they're doing this with public information and presumably whatever else you've implicitly consented to giving them, so I don't see a problem with that. Nonetheless this isn't the experience I'd want from a restaurant, and fortunately there are plenty of others to choose from.
- asdf6969 1y agoMaybe I’ll start taking pictures of the owners kids playing in the yard so I can establish a better relationship with the business and get better service.
- Ccecil 1y agoThe movie "LA Story" predicted this in the L'Idiot scene. https://youtu.be/k3FvhR0n8x8?si=YjNzYF60aCeRvZE3&t=68 https://youtu.be/k3FvhR0n8x8?si=YjNzYF60aCeRvZE3&t=68
- rsynnott 1y agoThis is disconcerting, and I don’t like it, though I suppose I’m not really the target audience.
- Barracoon 1y agoLots of people saying they don’t like the idea of this here. How many people works at companies whose bottom line is driven by researching website visitors to make their ads unforgettable?
- BiteCode_dev 1y agoIn fact, many people on HN work for Google.
- PeterStuer 1y agoDoes that imply you have to like it or be labeled a hypocrite? Life isn't a series of black or white choices, but full of multifacetted grey areas where some bad will always be mixed in with the good. I can very much dislike restaurants sleuthing me even if I have sites with add revenue. I do not care for their imagined 'marginal service improvent potential'. For excellent service and good food, you do not need to know anything about me beyond my reservation and any food allergies me or my party might volunteer.
- not_a_shill 1y agoOf course you can like your targeted ads/data collection and not the restaurant's targeted experience...the restaurant isnt paying you! So yes you're a hypocrite, but no one really cares--most people are.
- slightwinder 1y agoAds are automated, no human involved into the actual research of a specific visitor. It's still creepy, but less personal. Some people can accept this line. But I also guess, with AI this line might be moved again. The deeper reason is probably, machines are following rules, and they do it equally, focus on their specific job, without any hidden agenda. Humans are different, they have personal opinions and their own agenda, they can even be abusive. This is taking control from the people, and many people don't like losing control.
- barbazoo 1y agoBoth kinds of people are here. People who complain about social media, arms, pollution etc and people whose job contributes to it. There’s no point in expecting a homogeneous experience here.
- m3kw9 1y agoThey been doing that for decades
- nobodyandproud 1y agoTerrible. I go to fine dining in order to partake in the chef’s vision.
- bz_bz_bz 1y agoI once dined at a Michelin starred restaurant that ended the meal with a surprise for us that made me feel that they must have had listening devices in the establishment (it was based on a comment made when no server was around). In the moment, I was very impressed (and figured maybe it was a common thing in eastern bloc countries lol), but I could definitely see how others would find it creepy. Edit: removed Bear comment as I misread the article.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- aaronmdjones 1y agoLife imitating art https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hTBAOnDQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hTBAOnDQE
- zelos 1y agoThe penguin example seems kind of overstated, since from the sound of it the restaurant basically just donated a few dollars to WWF, but it's dressed up as how they "adopted a living animal for a guest" and no one's done that before.
- munificent 1y agoThat's because this article is an ad for that restaurant.
- gadders 1y agoCommon Cog business newsletter did some articles [1] about how this was implemented in Eleven Madison Park, starting in 2001 when Will Guidara [2] took over. [1] https://commoncog.com/hospitality-solution-business/ https://commoncog.com/hospitality-solution-business/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Guidara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Guidara
- kjellsbells 1y agoI'm going to sound like a grinch here, but the flip side of researching the guests to provide stellar service is that the people who don't show up in the persons of note list may end up getting crappier service. It's like the notorious practice of fashion people not qualifying to buy an overpriced handbag until they've proven their loyalty to the brand by buying previous overpriced handbags. The reason people come back from overseas trips raving about some cute little trattoria or izakaya joint is rarely because the owner sponsored a penguin, but more because the host achieved a genuinely human connection with the diner.
- heeton 1y agoHaving been to a place that does this, before I had an online profile: I think this is only one side of their approach. During my visit the team were super attentive and conversational and picked up on insanely small details. I’m sure if you weren’t a person of note, you’ll still get the same service but they have a different starting point to deliver it.
- Atotalnoob 1y agoThe restaurants at this tier aren’t giving anyone bad service. Service is a big component of being a Michelin starred restaurant.
- randerson 1y agoI dined at a fine dining restaurant in the Bay area that had obviously Googled my name in advance, and found a semi-famous person who shares my name. As I arrived the maitre'd said some things that made no sense, like she hoped the conference I was in town for was going well. But she looked visibly confused, and as a waiter walked me to my table I could see them huddling and glancing at me. Later on I searched and found that my namesake was in fact in town.
- randomcarbloke 1y agohash collision
- xhkkffbf 1y agoHah....but these kind of places serve something better than hash.
- interestica 1y agoSounds like a (fusion) menu item. https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-how-to-make-the-best-potato-hash https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-how-to-make-the-bes...
- derwiki 1y agoGreat idea! I will now be Michael Bolton for the purposes of restaurant reservations.
- bz_bz_bz 1y agohttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7R9M-Taik https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7R9M-Taik
- m463 1y agoThe endgame is that you get a custom menu with customized prices.
- pyuser583 1y agoI have a name that’s completely unique, except for some well known European scholar in a highly specialized field of medicine. One day the scholar visted my city to give a lecture, and I seriously considered attending and causing some type of trouble. But whatever fun I would have it’s not worth sitting through a lecture on some chemical process in the lower blah blah blah blah.
- qbantek 1y agoThat whole story sounds like hell to me. Another invasion to the little privacy we are left with.
- Const-me 1y agoThe last few times I reserved a table at a restaurant, I only gave my first name. They never asked for my full name, would be hard for them to find me on social media. However, I'm an immigrant with a locally uncommon first name, YMMV.
- asdf6969 1y ago[dead]