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One aspect of drone wars that I have been observing also is the importance of naval drones. For example, Ukraine successfully used it to scare away the bulk of

by dkga 1y ago

One aspect of drone wars that I have been observing also is the importance of naval drones. For example, Ukraine successfully used it to scare away the bulk of the Black Sea Fleet; now drug lords in Colombia are already using them to send drugs to Europe.[0] A plausible next step would be, if not already done, to have a fleet of small but powerful naval drones that act as sea buoys to sweep the sea for submarines - this would have the potential to complete change submarine deployment strategy. Especially for countries with massive borders, including maritime borders, a fleet of aerial and naval drones will seem indispensable if nothing else for deterrence. [0]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drone-narco-sub-seized-first-time-caribbean-colombia/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drone-narco-sub-seized-first-ti...

arresin 1y ago
If they’re that deep then they need to be autonomous because I don’t think there’s any way to reliably get a signal sub marine.
- exDM69 1y ago
  Long distance communication with submarines is difficult but not impossible, there are four extra low frequency transmitters in the world to send signals in nuclear doomsday scenarios. For shorter distances, there are acoustic and optical devices, and near surface some low frequency radios can be used. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarine...
  - mikestew 1y ago
    “Communication” does not mean “can be used for command of a remote device”. The bandwidth is so low as to make it impractical (bytes per second or minute (in the case of ELF)), in addition to being one-way comm. You’re not remotely driving a boat with that.
    - esseph 1y ago
      You'd be amazed to learn what we do with spaceships then!
      - mikestew 1y ago
        I’d be amazed if the use case were exactly the same, such that low bandwidth communication were equally useful in both cases, yes. Beside the fact that Voyager 1's 160 bits/s would be luxury for an underwater craft using VLF or ELF. And it apparently bears repeating: communication with a submarine using VLF/ELF is one-way. Such is not the case with a spacecraft, even if the latency sucks.
        whaleofatw2022 1y ago
        Lots of folks forget the challenges of attenuation in a given medium... e.x. light doesnt go `c` in fiber....
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    > For shorter distances, there are acoustic and optical devices, and near surface some low frequency radios can be used. So, not in any way an answer to the problem of controlling deep drone submarines?
- Balgair 1y ago
  I can't wait to see when the narcosubs are driven via long fiberoptic cables with an occasional surfacing for GPS lock. The sea floor between caches is just going to be littered.
lukan 1y ago
A network of underwater sensors are already a thing. Otherwise sure, drones will be everywhere soon. And since radio can and will be jammed, they already can autonomous find and kill their targets. Or whatever the AI classifies as enemy. Autonomous killer drones in our life time, yeah.
- ta20240528 1y ago
  Wide-band spread spectrum communications (CDMA) can't really be jammed. Since the basis of this is in every smart-phone, its odd it isn't used in military UAVs.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    Of course they can be jammed, it's just harder and needs more power. In the military cat and mouse game I don't think it will be an issue. Maybe that is why fibre was adopted instead.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - esseph 1y ago
    It absolutely can be jammed, the same way other frequency hopping radios and systems can and do get jammed.
  - dron57 1y ago
    Civilian telecoms are absolutely used in military UAVs. Ukraine and Russia both use their opponents SIM cards in long range strike drones. And I’m pretty sure that attack vector would work well anywhere, including the US.
pydry 1y ago
Ukraine has tried multiple times to blow up the Kerch bridge with underwater drones and have now largely given up. Underwater drones are not anywhere near as relevant in this war as airborne drones.
- DennisP 1y ago
  It's not just about the bridge, and the drones aren't necessarily underwater. Some are basically jet skis. Ukraine has used them to blow up several large Russian ships, and denied Russian access to much of the Black Sea.
  - pydry 1y ago
    Id take Ukrainian claims of disabling the black sea fleet with a large grain of salt, especially since theyre also claiming to be routinely shooting down black sea fleet fired kalibr missiles.
    - DennisP 1y ago
      US DoD confirmed that Ukraine struck the Moskva and sank it. It was the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva "Russia's Ministry of Defence said the large landing ship Novocherkassk was struck by Ukrainian aircraft carrying guided missiles....After a missile strike on the headquarters of the Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol last September, satellite images showed that the Russian navy had moved much of its Black Sea fleet away from Crimea to the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk," which is southeast of Crimea. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821515 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821515 At the end of 2023, UK's defense minister said Russia had lost 20% of its Black Sea fleet in the prior four months. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-fifth-black-sea-fleet-last-four-months-2023-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-fifth-black-sea-... None of this implies that Russia's fleet has been entirely disabled. They are still firing missiles. But Ukraine has done them serious damage. (Some of that was by more conventional weapons though.)
tguvot 1y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueWhale_(UUV) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueWhale_(UUV)

by dkga 1y ago

arresin 1y ago

If they’re that deep then they need to be autonomous because I don’t think there’s any way to reliably get a signal sub marine.

exDM69 1y ago
Long distance communication with submarines is difficult but not impossible, there are four extra low frequency transmitters in the world to send signals in nuclear doomsday scenarios. For shorter distances, there are acoustic and optical devices, and near surface some low frequency radios can be used. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarine...
- mikestew 1y ago
  “Communication” does not mean “can be used for command of a remote device”. The bandwidth is so low as to make it impractical (bytes per second or minute (in the case of ELF)), in addition to being one-way comm. You’re not remotely driving a boat with that.
  - esseph 1y ago
    You'd be amazed to learn what we do with spaceships then!
    - mikestew 1y ago
      I’d be amazed if the use case were exactly the same, such that low bandwidth communication were equally useful in both cases, yes. Beside the fact that Voyager 1's 160 bits/s would be luxury for an underwater craft using VLF or ELF. And it apparently bears repeating: communication with a submarine using VLF/ELF is one-way. Such is not the case with a spacecraft, even if the latency sucks.
      - whaleofatw2022 1y ago
        Lots of folks forget the challenges of attenuation in a given medium... e.x. light doesnt go `c` in fiber....
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  > For shorter distances, there are acoustic and optical devices, and near surface some low frequency radios can be used. So, not in any way an answer to the problem of controlling deep drone submarines?
Balgair 1y ago
I can't wait to see when the narcosubs are driven via long fiberoptic cables with an occasional surfacing for GPS lock. The sea floor between caches is just going to be littered.

lukan 1y ago

A network of underwater sensors are already a thing. Otherwise sure, drones will be everywhere soon. And since radio can and will be jammed, they already can autonomous find and kill their targets. Or whatever the AI classifies as enemy. Autonomous killer drones in our life time, yeah.

ta20240528 1y ago
Wide-band spread spectrum communications (CDMA) can't really be jammed. Since the basis of this is in every smart-phone, its odd it isn't used in military UAVs.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  Of course they can be jammed, it's just harder and needs more power. In the military cat and mouse game I don't think it will be an issue. Maybe that is why fibre was adopted instead.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- esseph 1y ago
  It absolutely can be jammed, the same way other frequency hopping radios and systems can and do get jammed.
- dron57 1y ago
  Civilian telecoms are absolutely used in military UAVs. Ukraine and Russia both use their opponents SIM cards in long range strike drones. And I’m pretty sure that attack vector would work well anywhere, including the US.

pydry 1y ago

Ukraine has tried multiple times to blow up the Kerch bridge with underwater drones and have now largely given up. Underwater drones are not anywhere near as relevant in this war as airborne drones.

DennisP 1y ago
It's not just about the bridge, and the drones aren't necessarily underwater. Some are basically jet skis. Ukraine has used them to blow up several large Russian ships, and denied Russian access to much of the Black Sea.
- pydry 1y ago
  Id take Ukrainian claims of disabling the black sea fleet with a large grain of salt, especially since theyre also claiming to be routinely shooting down black sea fleet fired kalibr missiles.
  - DennisP 1y ago
    US DoD confirmed that Ukraine struck the Moskva and sank it. It was the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva "Russia's Ministry of Defence said the large landing ship Novocherkassk was struck by Ukrainian aircraft carrying guided missiles....After a missile strike on the headquarters of the Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol last September, satellite images showed that the Russian navy had moved much of its Black Sea fleet away from Crimea to the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk," which is southeast of Crimea. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821515 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67821515 At the end of 2023, UK's defense minister said Russia had lost 20% of its Black Sea fleet in the prior four months. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-fifth-black-sea-fleet-last-four-months-2023-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-fifth-black-sea-... None of this implies that Russia's fleet has been entirely disabled. They are still firing missiles. But Ukraine has done them serious damage. (Some of that was by more conventional weapons though.)

tguvot 1y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueWhale_(UUV) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueWhale_(UUV)