6 ms·

What Was Cyberpunk? In Memoriam: 1980-2020 (2020)

78 points by Bluestein 1y ago

ghushn3 1y ago
> If cyberpunk can be defined as an imagining of late capitalism, you don’t have to be a leftist to imagine it, but it sure does fucking help your analysis. Article is long, but thorough, but it misses one key preceding influence -- the feminist and new wave sci-fi authors of the 60s and 70s. In particular, it's not difficult to see the roots of Cyberpunk in the works of Le Guin, Joanna Russ, James Tiptree Jr, J. G. Ballard, etc. all contributing to create fertile soil for Cyberpunk as a genre. The works of those authors imagined sexual liberation, drug use, environmentalism, new sexualities, and the influence of technology on daily life. While none of them wrote things that were themselves cyberpunk, they had an essential role in driving genre to where it could begin. (And indeed, one of the most prominent figures in the genre, Bruce Sterling, once credited J.G. Ballard.) I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! None of us write anything without standing on the shoulders of those who came before, building on the works and ideas of those that came before. It doesn't diminish Gibson's accomplishments to talk about what he might be drawing from, at least for me, it adds a richness and a thing to go and explore and try to understand what the natures of the world was during the time those books were being written.
- mc32 1y ago
  Wasn’t it heavily influenced by a vision of dystopia, mixed with Luddism and cybernetics? I’m not an enthusiast of this gender of fiction but that’s the impression I get. It basically adds humanity to a future (where for some the ideal was homo sovieticus).
  - ghushn3 1y ago
    I don't think I made the claim it was solely influenced by new wave and feminist authors from the seventies. I suspect the workers rights movement (luddism), cybernetics, and different views of dystopia (including those penned by folks like Le Guin) contributed to shaping it.
- pyrale 1y ago
  > Article is long, but thorough, but it misses one key preceding influence That's because the article is simply not really exploring distinct genres that had an influence on cyberpunk, but searching its ethos. It's not really like this is an exceptional omission in the article. > I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth That's not exactly the point of the article, of which about half is devoted to criticizing Gibson.
- gonzobonzo 1y ago
  > I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! He probably came as close as an author could to inventing the genre whole cloth. No one's claiming that Gibson had zero influence from previous SciFi. But the authors you mention didn't write anything that could be perceived as being cyberpunk without generalizing things to the point where they're meaningless ("Russ wrote about cyborgs, and Gibson did too!" - yes, they were an ongoing staple in SciFi for years). The vast majority of what people think of when they think of cyberpunk comes from Gibson, as far as I can tell. I've tried in vain to find anything close to it pre-Gibson (again, without generalizing things to the point where we're not really talking about cyberpunk anymore). I'd say he's more responsible for cyberpunk as a genre than Tolkein is for generic fantasy.
- wjrb 1y ago
  > I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! None of us write anything without standing on the shoulders of those who came before, building on the works and ideas of those that came before. Not defending him or speaking for him, but based on his Paris Review interview, I think Gibson would be the last person to claim he invented the genre; he was trying to do something inside of science fiction, and instead science fiction "othered" the thing he was doing by calling it a sub-genre and continuing going on doing the science fiction writing they were already doing. The article claims that cyberpunk and "Neuromanticism" are distinct, with the "Neuromantics" coming out and doing the same thing as Neuromancer, without the cyberpunk ethos being there underneath.
  - ghushn3 1y ago
    I agree -- Gibson is never the one saying he's invented the genre. He's been consistent about this for decades (and even finds the genre itself to be kinda nonsense.) It's mostly fans who push for the Sprawl Trilogy to be this bolt from a clear sky.
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  As always John Brunner gets forgotten, although "The Shockwave Rider" is a very direct and obvious influence on Gibson. As are his other dystopian books.
kennywinker 1y ago
If cyberpunk is an imagining of late capitalism, then wouldn’t octavia butler’s parable of the sower be prime cyberpunk? I don’t think it is. I’m not a scholar of this, but to me it lacks a focus on tech indicative of cyberpunk. Either because it’s told from the perspective of people who don’t have access to what tech remains, or because it’s too far into the collapse that tech is mostly gone? Either way, it’s a must-read.
- ghushn3 1y ago
  It's sort of it's own thing -- a pre-post-apocalypse novel, an earthseed novel, a cautionary tale, a book about the fall of empire. But I agree, it's probably not a cyberpunk novel. That said, it's in conversation with the genre, imo, and imagines a different way late stage capitalism can go -- not up into dystopian spires and neon lights, but down into instability due to climate change, growing wealth inequality, and corporate greed.
- sevensor 1y ago
  All that you touch, you change All that you change, changes you The only lasting truth is change God is change One of my favorites, and much as I love Gibson, I think Butler gets far too little attention and he gets too much. And not only does he get too much attention, he gets too much attention for Neuromancer. The Parable of the Sower is a more interesting and intellectually mature book, as is much of Gibson’s later work.
wjrb 1y ago
Long, but a good read, though I started skimming around the (broken?) [IMG] tags. Great history and clarification of the source of what "we" imagine as cyberpunk and what that means. Reading this in the context of recent discussions about 'Reading Neuromancer for the First Time in 2025'[0] and The Paris Review interview with William Gibson[1]. I recommend the discussion of [0] and reading all of [1] if you're into this. The article defines cyberpunk as 'science fiction that imagines “late capitalism”'. In Gibson's Paris Review, he says (to paraphrase) that the past as it was cannot be imagined; we can only imagine the future. There's no "speculative" that's purely the future, because it all must build on the present. I found the post illuminating and a great disambiguation of the term "cyberpunk" and the (messy) history of the term. There's no mention of the term "solarpunk", which some regard as a sort of modern-successor-thing to cyberpunk. I haven't read any yet. I sometimes imagine Doctorow's work as post-cyberpunk, somehow more painful because it's often realistic but also more positive. Like the article says, it's hard to classify things. I'm a huge Neuromancer and Gibson fan, and love the cyberpunk aesthetic as well as the "Neuromantic" genre. I haven't read much Bruce Sterling, so glad to get to read 'Mozart in Mirrorshades'. The article does touch on Japanese cyberpunk, to say that it's outside the context of the post --- which I appreciate! The discussion from 3 days ago [0] has some great comments making those distinctions, though I'm only familiar with a small part of the media. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44548353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44548353 [1]: https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6089/the-art-of-fiction-no-211-william-gibson https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6089/the-art-of-fi...
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  Solarpunk seems far less dystopian, so while it is one successor, it's by no means the preordained one. Gibson has a post-capitalistic Jackpot trilogy, but that seems to have disappeared into the "post-apocalyptic" box. Amazon have adapted the first book. It's by far the best adaptation of any Gibson book, according to this commenter
  - wjrb 1y ago
    Off-topic-ish, do you have any solarpunk media (books, movie, whatever) you can recommend? I won't even take a crack at trying to understand all of the time/reality things happening in the Jackpot trilogy.
gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
Gibson branched off into post-capitalistic visions with the Jackpot trilogy. It (the socio-economic theme, at least) is not on the uptake by new generations of readers or sci-fi authors A pity. Glad to have any enthusiast disagree!
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  The Jackpot trilogy has some strong original ideas, but IMO the writing has gone down a good couple of notches. I found myself getting annoyed by how clunky it was. The Amazon show is very, very good, and definitely worth watching. I don't understand what modern SFF has turned into. Many modern books do nothing for me at all. It feels like at some point we stopped being able to imagine completely new futures and started recycling old futures as video games and CGI movies.
  - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
    The other alright adaptation was New Rose Hotel https://youtu.be/FskaT9FcNsI https://youtu.be/FskaT9FcNsI https://youtu.be/SWdMv6Tv3Lw https://youtu.be/SWdMv6Tv3Lw https://youtu.be/mOIuL3ulhyI https://youtu.be/mOIuL3ulhyI https://youtu.be/8qvflE8jPtQ https://youtu.be/8qvflE8jPtQ Feels political heh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_Corbell_Pickett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_Corbell_Pickett I agree with you on the relative merits of the book vs adaptation. Maybe Amazon took the "pros" a bit too seriously? The ratings didn't seem bad at all! https://lithub.com/sadly-the-peripheral-is-not-the-great-cyberpunk-series-weve-been-waiting-for/ https://lithub.com/sadly-the-peripheral-is-not-the-great-cyb... https://www.goonhammer.com/amazons-the-peripheral-this-meeting-could-have-been-an-email/ https://www.goonhammer.com/amazons-the-peripheral-this-meeti...
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
Animats 1y ago
Part I is sort of OK, although it has the tone of those who argue over sub-genres of techno music. Part II is mostly a standard anti-Facebook screed. Nothing new here.
- dylan604 1y ago
  I mean, techno is a sub-genre, so you meant sub-sub-genre??<ducks> If you can't distinguish the differences that other people can, it's not their fault. You can be dismissive and flippant about it, but there is nothing wrong* with people that can. It's right up there with the people that can tell you all of the differences about each of the lures in their tackle box. They are really into while you are not. Stop judging. *Unless it's about fonts as I just made the opposite argument about fonts.
  - fancyswimtime 1y ago
    techno is drum driven; but to many its any sort of dance music
  - rpdillon 1y ago
    It's an argument that has more precision than it does accuracy, making it often a complete waste of time. When Armin Van Buuren is beginning his annual year mixes with an admonition to stop worrying about genre so much, you know we've gone too far.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      To tell someone that is into house music that they listen to techno is like saying someone that writes code in javascript is the same thing as writing code in lisp. It's just not true only to those that know the difference, but to those that know the difference it is laughable.
      - rpdillon 1y ago
        I'm not arguing that genres don't exist. I'm arguing that the lines between them are blurry, leading to endless conflict about what genre thing belongs to. It's uniformly tiring and unhelpful.
alganet 1y ago
Cyberpunk is a fiction probe into computer people, adopted as a pet. As long as computers exist, there will be fiction about them and people that work with them. Call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter.
- pyman 1y ago
  I've always wondered why The Matrix isn't talked about more as cyberpunk. It ticks all the boxes: dystopia, hackers, virtual worlds, machines in control. Also, speaking of The Matrix, I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious. Trained inside the system, starts questioning it, breaks free, and rewrites the rules. What I find interesting is that AI didn't even exist 25 years ago, and AI agents (Agent Smith) weren't even on the radar. And yet, the writers used simple analogies to explain it very well.
  - rotexo 1y ago
    I’ve always felt that the Matrix lacks the sort of social commentary I associate with cyberpunk. Sure, it has virtual reality, but it’s more a messianic power fantasy than an unflinching look at the human condition. Strange Days struck me as a more authentically cyberpunk artifact. Just my two cents.
    - alganet 1y ago
      You're right, there is no novelty (despite the attempt) in social commentary there. But they give you a spoon (for you to make one yourself). I think the one that took off as the main interpretation is definitely not what the Watchowski brothers intended (but they had to go with it). It's definitely no more messianic than other countless movies, it just wears a more messianic cloth.
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        *Wachowski sisters :)
rogerdb 1y ago
I'm not an expert in the genre, but I am a big fan of Neuromancer. I skimmed the article, and while I agree that the "cyberpunk" aesthetic has practically evolved into self parody, I'm not sure I agree about the analysis/critique of the genre. IMO the core of cyberpunk is about envisioning a world where advanced technology is useful and ubiquitous, yet humanity is worse off than ever ("high tech, low life"). It's a subversion of the simple tech dystopias where the technology itself is evil or is misused by evil people, and more of a realistic counterpoint to the idea that technological progress leads to inevitable utopia. I'm not sure about more contemporary works that build on those themes. Maybe it's lost its edge as "futuristic" technology has pushed its way more and more into our lives?
- haiku2077 1y ago
  Climate fiction such as New York 2140 and The Ministry for the Future might be one example of modern themes of technology reinforcing and amplifying existing inequalities.
- BowBun 1y ago
  > I'm not sure about more contemporary works that build on those themes. Maybe it's lost its edge as "futuristic" technology has pushed its way more and more into our lives? Yep. Food surplus yet millions starving. Advanced cosmetic medicine yet millions die of preventable infections. Access to nearly all information ever gathered yet it can feel like we're living through Idiocracy! It's not all bad, but that was my nihilist take on your question :) I think any attempt at commentary right now would end up eerily reminiscent of modern life.
  - b00ty4breakfast 1y ago
    > think any attempt at commentary right now would end up eerily reminiscent of modern life. The genre was always an extrapolation of contemporary society as the authors saw it. You could absolutely do that today, with appropriately updated technical speculations, but without the signifiers of the petrified genre of Cyberpunk that we are all familiar with in 2025, folks might not recognize it as such. Doesn't mean it's not engaging in the same milieu
MontyCarloHall 1y ago
The most succinct description of Cyberpunk I've heard: "the future if the 1980s never ended." This description applies more generally to other -punk genres: Steampunk: the future if the 1890s never ended Dieselpunk … if the 1940s never ended Atompunk: … if the 1950s never ended Curiously, we have not yet seen the emergence of a -punk genre set in the 90s/2000s.
- protocolture 1y ago
  One of Gibsons trilogies is roughly Hotmail-punk.
- the_af 1y ago
  I think that's a shallow definition of cyberpunk, and why so many recent works miss the mark. The cyberpunk of old had an 80s aesthetic because it was mostly created at that time, but it wasn't about that aesthetic. It was "punk" in the sense of rebellion, it was about corporate greed, and the (mis)use of advanced technology, of high tech and low lives, it was about the street and people living on the edge. I don't think its authors envisioned cyberpunk as being stuck in the 80s forever...
  - lisbbb 1y ago
    I think reading that genre prepared me well for today.
- lisbbb 1y ago
  Pretty sure that's because the 90s were boring as hell (I was late teens/early 20s , can confirm). AIDS scare ruined dating for quite a few years after the 80s, Grunge was fucking dumb, the dot-com explosion was interesting, but very short-lived. Dialup. I think Atompunk and Dieselpunk would be reaching as well.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Not quite there yet, but stuff like Warframe 1999 was trying for a sort of green phosphor / CRT, walkmans and boy bands punk sci fi? I think there's a little option for it. Definitely keep the use of NIN as a soundtrack.
Bluestein 1y ago
Relevant, via a cute story :) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44550312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44550312
julianeon 1y ago
When I think of who's carrying the genre today, in books, I think of Cameron Hurley (God's War) and K.C. Alexander (Necrotech). Hurley's books capture its spirit especially well.
PeterStuer 1y ago
I devoured scifi books from a very young age. Books in the library were sorted on the shelves alphabetically by writer's last name, and marked by coloured dots on the spine. Scifi was "yellow". I read every yellow dot from A to Z. When cyberpunk came on the scene, it was very much more aligned with the times. Rather than the utopean space operas, LSD fueled fantasies, or space westerns, this alligned with the culture of kids brought up with the 'no future' of rapid industrial workforce decline and imminent nuclear armagedon. Dark, gritty places were people made do despite being under totalitarian mob/goverment rule. It felt so much more real than the clean spaceships exploring the universe in sweet harmony. I still love all (nearly) scifi. What is true though is most near future works tend to age poorly. Cyberpunk might have had an alignment dip at yhe end of the century's irrational exuberance, but I guess it's back.
- Bluestein 1y ago
  > read every yellow dot from A to Z. That's quite the way to get an education right there :)
  - PeterStuer 1y ago
    At the time there was not that much 'media' competing with the public library. ;)
    - Bluestein 1y ago
      PS. Hate saying this, but here it goes: I really hope the current budget "chainsawing" don't ever get to public libraries ... ... that would be a loss.-

78 points by Bluestein 1y ago

> If cyberpunk can be defined as an imagining of late capitalism, you don’t have to be a leftist to imagine it, but it sure does fucking help your analysis. Article is long, but thorough, but it misses one key preceding influence -- the feminist and new wave sci-fi authors of the 60s and 70s. In particular, it's not difficult to see the roots of Cyberpunk in the works of Le Guin, Joanna Russ, James Tiptree Jr, J. G. Ballard, etc. all contributing to create fertile soil for Cyberpunk as a genre. The works of those authors imagined sexual liberation, drug use, environmentalism, new sexualities, and the influence of technology on daily life. While none of them wrote things that were themselves cyberpunk, they had an essential role in driving genre to where it could begin. (And indeed, one of the most prominent figures in the genre, Bruce Sterling, once credited J.G. Ballard.) I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! None of us write anything without standing on the shoulders of those who came before, building on the works and ideas of those that came before. It doesn't diminish Gibson's accomplishments to talk about what he might be drawing from, at least for me, it adds a richness and a thing to go and explore and try to understand what the natures of the world was during the time those books were being written.

mc32 1y ago
Wasn’t it heavily influenced by a vision of dystopia, mixed with Luddism and cybernetics? I’m not an enthusiast of this gender of fiction but that’s the impression I get. It basically adds humanity to a future (where for some the ideal was homo sovieticus).
- ghushn3 1y ago
  I don't think I made the claim it was solely influenced by new wave and feminist authors from the seventies. I suspect the workers rights movement (luddism), cybernetics, and different views of dystopia (including those penned by folks like Le Guin) contributed to shaping it.
pyrale 1y ago
> Article is long, but thorough, but it misses one key preceding influence That's because the article is simply not really exploring distinct genres that had an influence on cyberpunk, but searching its ethos. It's not really like this is an exceptional omission in the article. > I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth That's not exactly the point of the article, of which about half is devoted to criticizing Gibson.
gonzobonzo 1y ago
> I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! He probably came as close as an author could to inventing the genre whole cloth. No one's claiming that Gibson had zero influence from previous SciFi. But the authors you mention didn't write anything that could be perceived as being cyberpunk without generalizing things to the point where they're meaningless ("Russ wrote about cyborgs, and Gibson did too!" - yes, they were an ongoing staple in SciFi for years). The vast majority of what people think of when they think of cyberpunk comes from Gibson, as far as I can tell. I've tried in vain to find anything close to it pre-Gibson (again, without generalizing things to the point where we're not really talking about cyberpunk anymore). I'd say he's more responsible for cyberpunk as a genre than Tolkein is for generic fantasy.
wjrb 1y ago
> I see so many people loving Gibson and crediting him for inventing the genre whole cloth, but of course he didn't! None of us write anything without standing on the shoulders of those who came before, building on the works and ideas of those that came before. Not defending him or speaking for him, but based on his Paris Review interview, I think Gibson would be the last person to claim he invented the genre; he was trying to do something inside of science fiction, and instead science fiction "othered" the thing he was doing by calling it a sub-genre and continuing going on doing the science fiction writing they were already doing. The article claims that cyberpunk and "Neuromanticism" are distinct, with the "Neuromantics" coming out and doing the same thing as Neuromancer, without the cyberpunk ethos being there underneath.
- ghushn3 1y ago
  I agree -- Gibson is never the one saying he's invented the genre. He's been consistent about this for decades (and even finds the genre itself to be kinda nonsense.) It's mostly fans who push for the Sprawl Trilogy to be this bolt from a clear sky.
TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
As always John Brunner gets forgotten, although "The Shockwave Rider" is a very direct and obvious influence on Gibson. As are his other dystopian books.

kennywinker 1y ago

If cyberpunk is an imagining of late capitalism, then wouldn’t octavia butler’s parable of the sower be prime cyberpunk? I don’t think it is. I’m not a scholar of this, but to me it lacks a focus on tech indicative of cyberpunk. Either because it’s told from the perspective of people who don’t have access to what tech remains, or because it’s too far into the collapse that tech is mostly gone? Either way, it’s a must-read.

ghushn3 1y ago
It's sort of it's own thing -- a pre-post-apocalypse novel, an earthseed novel, a cautionary tale, a book about the fall of empire. But I agree, it's probably not a cyberpunk novel. That said, it's in conversation with the genre, imo, and imagines a different way late stage capitalism can go -- not up into dystopian spires and neon lights, but down into instability due to climate change, growing wealth inequality, and corporate greed.
sevensor 1y ago
All that you touch, you change All that you change, changes you The only lasting truth is change God is change One of my favorites, and much as I love Gibson, I think Butler gets far too little attention and he gets too much. And not only does he get too much attention, he gets too much attention for Neuromancer. The Parable of the Sower is a more interesting and intellectually mature book, as is much of Gibson’s later work.

wjrb 1y ago

Long, but a good read, though I started skimming around the (broken?) [IMG] tags. Great history and clarification of the source of what "we" imagine as cyberpunk and what that means. Reading this in the context of recent discussions about 'Reading Neuromancer for the First Time in 2025'[0] and The Paris Review interview with William Gibson[1]. I recommend the discussion of [0] and reading all of [1] if you're into this. The article defines cyberpunk as 'science fiction that imagines “late capitalism”'. In Gibson's Paris Review, he says (to paraphrase) that the past as it was cannot be imagined; we can only imagine the future. There's no "speculative" that's purely the future, because it all must build on the present. I found the post illuminating and a great disambiguation of the term "cyberpunk" and the (messy) history of the term. There's no mention of the term "solarpunk", which some regard as a sort of modern-successor-thing to cyberpunk. I haven't read any yet. I sometimes imagine Doctorow's work as post-cyberpunk, somehow more painful because it's often realistic but also more positive. Like the article says, it's hard to classify things. I'm a huge Neuromancer and Gibson fan, and love the cyberpunk aesthetic as well as the "Neuromantic" genre. I haven't read much Bruce Sterling, so glad to get to read 'Mozart in Mirrorshades'. The article does touch on Japanese cyberpunk, to say that it's outside the context of the post --- which I appreciate! The discussion from 3 days ago [0] has some great comments making those distinctions, though I'm only familiar with a small part of the media. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44548353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44548353 [1]: https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6089/the-art-of-fiction-no-211-william-gibson https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6089/the-art-of-fi...

gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
Solarpunk seems far less dystopian, so while it is one successor, it's by no means the preordained one. Gibson has a post-capitalistic Jackpot trilogy, but that seems to have disappeared into the "post-apocalyptic" box. Amazon have adapted the first book. It's by far the best adaptation of any Gibson book, according to this commenter
- wjrb 1y ago
  Off-topic-ish, do you have any solarpunk media (books, movie, whatever) you can recommend? I won't even take a crack at trying to understand all of the time/reality things happening in the Jackpot trilogy.

gsf_emergency_2 1y ago

Gibson branched off into post-capitalistic visions with the Jackpot trilogy. It (the socio-economic theme, at least) is not on the uptake by new generations of readers or sci-fi authors A pity. Glad to have any enthusiast disagree!

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
The Jackpot trilogy has some strong original ideas, but IMO the writing has gone down a good couple of notches. I found myself getting annoyed by how clunky it was. The Amazon show is very, very good, and definitely worth watching. I don't understand what modern SFF has turned into. Many modern books do nothing for me at all. It feels like at some point we stopped being able to imagine completely new futures and started recycling old futures as video games and CGI movies.
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  The other alright adaptation was New Rose Hotel https://youtu.be/FskaT9FcNsI https://youtu.be/FskaT9FcNsI https://youtu.be/SWdMv6Tv3Lw https://youtu.be/SWdMv6Tv3Lw https://youtu.be/mOIuL3ulhyI https://youtu.be/mOIuL3ulhyI https://youtu.be/8qvflE8jPtQ https://youtu.be/8qvflE8jPtQ Feels political heh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_Corbell_Pickett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_Corbell_Pickett I agree with you on the relative merits of the book vs adaptation. Maybe Amazon took the "pros" a bit too seriously? The ratings didn't seem bad at all! https://lithub.com/sadly-the-peripheral-is-not-the-great-cyberpunk-series-weve-been-waiting-for/ https://lithub.com/sadly-the-peripheral-is-not-the-great-cyb... https://www.goonhammer.com/amazons-the-peripheral-this-meeting-could-have-been-an-email/ https://www.goonhammer.com/amazons-the-peripheral-this-meeti...

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

Animats 1y ago

Part I is sort of OK, although it has the tone of those who argue over sub-genres of techno music. Part II is mostly a standard anti-Facebook screed. Nothing new here.

dylan604 1y ago
I mean, techno is a sub-genre, so you meant sub-sub-genre??<ducks> If you can't distinguish the differences that other people can, it's not their fault. You can be dismissive and flippant about it, but there is nothing wrong* with people that can. It's right up there with the people that can tell you all of the differences about each of the lures in their tackle box. They are really into while you are not. Stop judging. *Unless it's about fonts as I just made the opposite argument about fonts.
- fancyswimtime 1y ago
  techno is drum driven; but to many its any sort of dance music
- rpdillon 1y ago
  It's an argument that has more precision than it does accuracy, making it often a complete waste of time. When Armin Van Buuren is beginning his annual year mixes with an admonition to stop worrying about genre so much, you know we've gone too far.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    To tell someone that is into house music that they listen to techno is like saying someone that writes code in javascript is the same thing as writing code in lisp. It's just not true only to those that know the difference, but to those that know the difference it is laughable.
    - rpdillon 1y ago
      I'm not arguing that genres don't exist. I'm arguing that the lines between them are blurry, leading to endless conflict about what genre thing belongs to. It's uniformly tiring and unhelpful.

alganet 1y ago

Cyberpunk is a fiction probe into computer people, adopted as a pet. As long as computers exist, there will be fiction about them and people that work with them. Call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter.

pyman 1y ago
I've always wondered why The Matrix isn't talked about more as cyberpunk. It ticks all the boxes: dystopia, hackers, virtual worlds, machines in control. Also, speaking of The Matrix, I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious. Trained inside the system, starts questioning it, breaks free, and rewrites the rules. What I find interesting is that AI didn't even exist 25 years ago, and AI agents (Agent Smith) weren't even on the radar. And yet, the writers used simple analogies to explain it very well.
- rotexo 1y ago
  I’ve always felt that the Matrix lacks the sort of social commentary I associate with cyberpunk. Sure, it has virtual reality, but it’s more a messianic power fantasy than an unflinching look at the human condition. Strange Days struck me as a more authentically cyberpunk artifact. Just my two cents.
  - alganet 1y ago
    You're right, there is no novelty (despite the attempt) in social commentary there. But they give you a spoon (for you to make one yourself). I think the one that took off as the main interpretation is definitely not what the Watchowski brothers intended (but they had to go with it). It's definitely no more messianic than other countless movies, it just wears a more messianic cloth.
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      *Wachowski sisters :)

rogerdb 1y ago

I'm not an expert in the genre, but I am a big fan of Neuromancer. I skimmed the article, and while I agree that the "cyberpunk" aesthetic has practically evolved into self parody, I'm not sure I agree about the analysis/critique of the genre. IMO the core of cyberpunk is about envisioning a world where advanced technology is useful and ubiquitous, yet humanity is worse off than ever ("high tech, low life"). It's a subversion of the simple tech dystopias where the technology itself is evil or is misused by evil people, and more of a realistic counterpoint to the idea that technological progress leads to inevitable utopia. I'm not sure about more contemporary works that build on those themes. Maybe it's lost its edge as "futuristic" technology has pushed its way more and more into our lives?

haiku2077 1y ago
Climate fiction such as New York 2140 and The Ministry for the Future might be one example of modern themes of technology reinforcing and amplifying existing inequalities.
BowBun 1y ago
> I'm not sure about more contemporary works that build on those themes. Maybe it's lost its edge as "futuristic" technology has pushed its way more and more into our lives? Yep. Food surplus yet millions starving. Advanced cosmetic medicine yet millions die of preventable infections. Access to nearly all information ever gathered yet it can feel like we're living through Idiocracy! It's not all bad, but that was my nihilist take on your question :) I think any attempt at commentary right now would end up eerily reminiscent of modern life.
- b00ty4breakfast 1y ago
  > think any attempt at commentary right now would end up eerily reminiscent of modern life. The genre was always an extrapolation of contemporary society as the authors saw it. You could absolutely do that today, with appropriately updated technical speculations, but without the signifiers of the petrified genre of Cyberpunk that we are all familiar with in 2025, folks might not recognize it as such. Doesn't mean it's not engaging in the same milieu

MontyCarloHall 1y ago

The most succinct description of Cyberpunk I've heard: "the future if the 1980s never ended." This description applies more generally to other -punk genres: Steampunk: the future if the 1890s never ended Dieselpunk … if the 1940s never ended Atompunk: … if the 1950s never ended Curiously, we have not yet seen the emergence of a -punk genre set in the 90s/2000s.

protocolture 1y ago
One of Gibsons trilogies is roughly Hotmail-punk.
the_af 1y ago
I think that's a shallow definition of cyberpunk, and why so many recent works miss the mark. The cyberpunk of old had an 80s aesthetic because it was mostly created at that time, but it wasn't about that aesthetic. It was "punk" in the sense of rebellion, it was about corporate greed, and the (mis)use of advanced technology, of high tech and low lives, it was about the street and people living on the edge. I don't think its authors envisioned cyberpunk as being stuck in the 80s forever...
- lisbbb 1y ago
  I think reading that genre prepared me well for today.
lisbbb 1y ago
Pretty sure that's because the 90s were boring as hell (I was late teens/early 20s , can confirm). AIDS scare ruined dating for quite a few years after the 80s, Grunge was fucking dumb, the dot-com explosion was interesting, but very short-lived. Dialup. I think Atompunk and Dieselpunk would be reaching as well.
nemomarx 1y ago
Not quite there yet, but stuff like Warframe 1999 was trying for a sort of green phosphor / CRT, walkmans and boy bands punk sci fi? I think there's a little option for it. Definitely keep the use of NIN as a soundtrack.

Bluestein 1y ago

Relevant, via a cute story :) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44550312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44550312

julianeon 1y ago

When I think of who's carrying the genre today, in books, I think of Cameron Hurley (God's War) and K.C. Alexander (Necrotech). Hurley's books capture its spirit especially well.

PeterStuer 1y ago

I devoured scifi books from a very young age. Books in the library were sorted on the shelves alphabetically by writer's last name, and marked by coloured dots on the spine. Scifi was "yellow". I read every yellow dot from A to Z. When cyberpunk came on the scene, it was very much more aligned with the times. Rather than the utopean space operas, LSD fueled fantasies, or space westerns, this alligned with the culture of kids brought up with the 'no future' of rapid industrial workforce decline and imminent nuclear armagedon. Dark, gritty places were people made do despite being under totalitarian mob/goverment rule. It felt so much more real than the clean spaceships exploring the universe in sweet harmony. I still love all (nearly) scifi. What is true though is most near future works tend to age poorly. Cyberpunk might have had an alignment dip at yhe end of the century's irrational exuberance, but I guess it's back.

Bluestein 1y ago
> read every yellow dot from A to Z. That's quite the way to get an education right there :)
- PeterStuer 1y ago
  At the time there was not that much 'media' competing with the public library. ;)
  - Bluestein 1y ago
    PS. Hate saying this, but here it goes: I really hope the current budget "chainsawing" don't ever get to public libraries ... ... that would be a loss.-