3 ms·

Seems like you’re saying “society treats trans people badly, so we should prevent people from transitioning” Coulda said the same about homosexuality ~30 years

Seems like you’re saying “society treats trans people badly, so we should prevent people from transitioning” Coulda said the same about homosexuality ~30 years ago. It’s a bad reason then, it’s a bad reason now.

Manuel_D 1y ago
Again, these people are not prevented from transitioning. A minority, about 20%, do transition as adults. The rest no longer harbor desire to live as a different gender.
- seethedeaduu 1y ago
  People have explained to you previously why this claim is false, yet you keep repeating it over and over. You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line). You already know this.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    Neither of the two things you asserted are true. > You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. These children met the criteria for GID in the contemporary iteration of the DSM. The author of the study I linked would go on to write the criteria for gender dysphoria in the DSM-V. The idea that we'd see a substantially different rate of desistence if the DSM-V was used is not likely: the author of the study has stated that most of the children would have met the criteria for gender dysphoria under the DSM-V. > You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line) The study followed up with patients for an average of over 10 years. Do you have any actual evidence that a significant portion of desisters in this study transitioned later in life? Or are you just stating this without evidence? People have not offered a good explanation why these rates of desistence are false. They either insist that the criteria used was wrong, or baselessly claim that desisters are repressing a desire to transition.
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      The explanation is there, if you want to see it. Puberty blockers are a huge step. Not one taken lightly. Kids who are unsure, by and large don’t take that step. I injured my wrist a few years back. Doctors offered me pt or surgery + pt. They clearly advised me that given the low severity of my injury, surgery would likely improve some things while causing other impacts. I declined the surgery. This is how most medical choices are made. Doctor advises, patient listens and choses best option. For patients who are also minors - their parents are also involved. Every day a parent and child choose between consequences of the intervention and consequences of non intervention. The only difference with trans kids is apparently you and the gov want a say in the choice. It’s not your body, nor your kid. It’s none of your business.
      - account42 1y ago
        How would you have decided if the doctors offered preemptive surgery on your wrist when you were still an impressionable child, before you ever got to experience the "pain" of your injury. How could you possibly make an informed decision then?
        seethedeaduu 1y ago
        I had that happen for another medical condition of mine and it did not seem controversial at all.
        kennywinker 1y ago
        How could I possibly make an informed decision as a child? Well, first off - we trust children to make life-altering decisions every day - sometimes without good access to info about potential downsides. A great example is sports. Many sports (ballet, football) can and do have life-long health and quality of life impacts. Minors can commit to those and yet there’s no widespread moral panic about it. The thing is I actually do trust children to figure out what’s best for themselves. Children are impulsive, yes - they have poor in-the-moment judgement. But medical transition isn’t something that can be done impulsively. It takes years of consistent action, not minutes or hours.
  - seethedeaduu 1y ago
    Previous discussion (with a different user): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44333870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44333870
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      That is the same user, me. The critical used the same arguments made here: insisting that the patients weren't "actually trans", which I find unlikely for the reasons I wrote above. Not only that, they cited the retracted CAMH report to try and discredit the study author. Not only was that report retracted, CAMH had to pay the author over half a million in damages for defamation.
      - seethedeaduu 1y ago
        > That is the same user, me I am talking about d6e
account42 1y ago
The part of society that treats them badly are those that encourage the delusions, including but not limited to the doctors that directly profit from that.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  Accusing the doctors of profiting directly off transitioning… well yes, in the states you have a for-profit medical system. But unless you think oncologists are giving kids cancer for their own profit, you’re being a hypocrite. In the UK, Canada, most of the rest of the world? Single payer public health systems mean trans healthcare isn’t more profitable than any other type of health care. Doctors have no profit incentive, as there are easier less controversial specialities that have larger patient bases and higher patient thru-put.

Manuel_D 1y ago

Again, these people are not prevented from transitioning. A minority, about 20%, do transition as adults. The rest no longer harbor desire to live as a different gender.

seethedeaduu 1y ago
People have explained to you previously why this claim is false, yet you keep repeating it over and over. You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line). You already know this.
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  Neither of the two things you asserted are true. > You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. These children met the criteria for GID in the contemporary iteration of the DSM. The author of the study I linked would go on to write the criteria for gender dysphoria in the DSM-V. The idea that we'd see a substantially different rate of desistence if the DSM-V was used is not likely: the author of the study has stated that most of the children would have met the criteria for gender dysphoria under the DSM-V. > You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line) The study followed up with patients for an average of over 10 years. Do you have any actual evidence that a significant portion of desisters in this study transitioned later in life? Or are you just stating this without evidence? People have not offered a good explanation why these rates of desistence are false. They either insist that the criteria used was wrong, or baselessly claim that desisters are repressing a desire to transition.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    The explanation is there, if you want to see it. Puberty blockers are a huge step. Not one taken lightly. Kids who are unsure, by and large don’t take that step. I injured my wrist a few years back. Doctors offered me pt or surgery + pt. They clearly advised me that given the low severity of my injury, surgery would likely improve some things while causing other impacts. I declined the surgery. This is how most medical choices are made. Doctor advises, patient listens and choses best option. For patients who are also minors - their parents are also involved. Every day a parent and child choose between consequences of the intervention and consequences of non intervention. The only difference with trans kids is apparently you and the gov want a say in the choice. It’s not your body, nor your kid. It’s none of your business.
    - account42 1y ago
      How would you have decided if the doctors offered preemptive surgery on your wrist when you were still an impressionable child, before you ever got to experience the "pain" of your injury. How could you possibly make an informed decision then?
      - seethedeaduu 1y ago
        I had that happen for another medical condition of mine and it did not seem controversial at all.
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        How could I possibly make an informed decision as a child? Well, first off - we trust children to make life-altering decisions every day - sometimes without good access to info about potential downsides. A great example is sports. Many sports (ballet, football) can and do have life-long health and quality of life impacts. Minors can commit to those and yet there’s no widespread moral panic about it. The thing is I actually do trust children to figure out what’s best for themselves. Children are impulsive, yes - they have poor in-the-moment judgement. But medical transition isn’t something that can be done impulsively. It takes years of consistent action, not minutes or hours.
- seethedeaduu 1y ago
  Previous discussion (with a different user): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44333870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44333870
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    That is the same user, me. The critical used the same arguments made here: insisting that the patients weren't "actually trans", which I find unlikely for the reasons I wrote above. Not only that, they cited the retracted CAMH report to try and discredit the study author. Not only was that report retracted, CAMH had to pay the author over half a million in damages for defamation.
    - seethedeaduu 1y ago
      > That is the same user, me I am talking about d6e

account42 1y ago

The part of society that treats them badly are those that encourage the delusions, including but not limited to the doctors that directly profit from that.

kennywinker 1y ago
Accusing the doctors of profiting directly off transitioning… well yes, in the states you have a for-profit medical system. But unless you think oncologists are giving kids cancer for their own profit, you’re being a hypocrite. In the UK, Canada, most of the rest of the world? Single payer public health systems mean trans healthcare isn’t more profitable than any other type of health care. Doctors have no profit incentive, as there are easier less controversial specialities that have larger patient bases and higher patient thru-put.