4 ms·

Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happi

Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happily as same-sex attracted cis people.

kennywinker 1y ago
And so how does all of this prove that it should be illegal to speak about transitioning anywhere kids might read? Because that is what is at stake with these rulings
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  No, I don't think it should be illegal to speak about transitioning. Where in this comment chain does it even remotely look like I argued in favor of the bans discussed in the OP?
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    You are arguing about the harms of transitioning in a thread about how talking about it online is being suppressed. It seems pretty clear your priorities are controlling other people, not access to information.
KittenInABox 1y ago
Note how I was focused on the idea that "given the life outcomes of trans people" and that's what you didn't address.
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  What didn't I address? The fact that trans people have worse life outcomes than cis people? That's such a well documented health disparity I didn't feel the need to links sources, but if you insist: Higher rates of suicidality: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ ~4x the rate of depression: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2824336#:~:text=Of%20the%20total%20sample%20of,past%2012%20months%20or%20lifetime). https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Even if these disparities are due to discrimination, those disparities still exist. We don't measure health outcomes based on what hypothetically would happen in an ideal world where people genuinely do not recognize or distinguish between the sexes. We measure health outcomes based on what happens in real world.
  - seethedeaduu 1y ago
    The idea that repressors have the same life outcomes as non dysphoric cis people seems dubious.
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      For the third time, desisters are non-dysphoric cis people. They are not repressing a trans identity. If they still feel gender dysphoria living as their cis gender they have, by definition, not desisted.
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        Desisting is no longer seeking medical or social transition. It says nothing about how you feel. You’re making that jump, but that’s not something you or anybody can know.
      - seethedeaduu 1y ago
        I used to be one of these desisters who was bullied out of thinking about transitioning. I think I know enough about the topic. You will say "but then you were not a desister" but I would be counted as one, just like the other kids in my position.
        Manuel_D 1y ago
        Unless you transitioned over 10 years after seeing your psychiatrist, you would be counted at the ~20% that persisted.
  - KittenInABox 1y ago
    The logic here is so strange. You acknowledge discrimination against trans people exist and yet also use the discrimination against trans people as a justification to discriminate against children exploring gender, i.e. trans children. I wonder how many left handed people were beaten into becoming right handed, and remained right handed. In a society where left handed people continue to be beaten, would these people be considered happily right handed since they continue to use their right hand? How would we be able to tell? I wonder if we existed in a world where soft boys were beaten into becoming less emotional, who grow up to be unemotional men. In a society where adult men are beaten if they express softness, are these men considered happily unemotional? How would we be able to tell? How do we tell if someone is cis when it is stigmatized to be trans or express gender dysphoria? Genuinely not sure, honestly.

Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happily as same-sex attracted cis people.

kennywinker 1y ago

And so how does all of this prove that it should be illegal to speak about transitioning anywhere kids might read? Because that is what is at stake with these rulings

Manuel_D 1y ago
No, I don't think it should be illegal to speak about transitioning. Where in this comment chain does it even remotely look like I argued in favor of the bans discussed in the OP?
- kennywinker 1y ago
  You are arguing about the harms of transitioning in a thread about how talking about it online is being suppressed. It seems pretty clear your priorities are controlling other people, not access to information.

KittenInABox 1y ago

Note how I was focused on the idea that "given the life outcomes of trans people" and that's what you didn't address.

Manuel_D 1y ago
What didn't I address? The fact that trans people have worse life outcomes than cis people? That's such a well documented health disparity I didn't feel the need to links sources, but if you insist: Higher rates of suicidality: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ ~4x the rate of depression: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2824336#:~:text=Of%20the%20total%20sample%20of,past%2012%20months%20or%20lifetime). https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Even if these disparities are due to discrimination, those disparities still exist. We don't measure health outcomes based on what hypothetically would happen in an ideal world where people genuinely do not recognize or distinguish between the sexes. We measure health outcomes based on what happens in real world.
- seethedeaduu 1y ago
  The idea that repressors have the same life outcomes as non dysphoric cis people seems dubious.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    For the third time, desisters are non-dysphoric cis people. They are not repressing a trans identity. If they still feel gender dysphoria living as their cis gender they have, by definition, not desisted.
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      Desisting is no longer seeking medical or social transition. It says nothing about how you feel. You’re making that jump, but that’s not something you or anybody can know.
    - seethedeaduu 1y ago
      I used to be one of these desisters who was bullied out of thinking about transitioning. I think I know enough about the topic. You will say "but then you were not a desister" but I would be counted as one, just like the other kids in my position.
      - Manuel_D 1y ago
        Unless you transitioned over 10 years after seeing your psychiatrist, you would be counted at the ~20% that persisted.
- KittenInABox 1y ago
  The logic here is so strange. You acknowledge discrimination against trans people exist and yet also use the discrimination against trans people as a justification to discriminate against children exploring gender, i.e. trans children. I wonder how many left handed people were beaten into becoming right handed, and remained right handed. In a society where left handed people continue to be beaten, would these people be considered happily right handed since they continue to use their right hand? How would we be able to tell? I wonder if we existed in a world where soft boys were beaten into becoming less emotional, who grow up to be unemotional men. In a society where adult men are beaten if they express softness, are these men considered happily unemotional? How would we be able to tell? How do we tell if someone is cis when it is stigmatized to be trans or express gender dysphoria? Genuinely not sure, honestly.