4 ms·

Given the disparity in life outcomes between trans people and cis people, the idea that the desisters would have been better off transitioning is quite the bold

Given the disparity in life outcomes between trans people and cis people, the idea that the desisters would have been better off transitioning is quite the bold speculation.

KittenInABox 1y ago
How much can the disparity in life outcomes be attributed to a trans person needing to undergo a second puberty in a society where doing so is discriminated against? I feel like as a society we put trans people in a situation where it is controversial for them to transition as children, but also controversial for them to transition as adults. (The notion of a man in a dress no longer exists if the man never had male puberty, but not only is it controversial for such a boy to never have male puberty, we villainize the now-man's attempts to become a woman!) But then we say that outcomes for trans people are bad so them staying in the closet is good. Which is weird, because the cause of the bad outcomes is that there is no stage of their life where trans people can transition noncontroversially.
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happily as same-sex attracted cis people.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    And so how does all of this prove that it should be illegal to speak about transitioning anywhere kids might read? Because that is what is at stake with these rulings
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      No, I don't think it should be illegal to speak about transitioning. Where in this comment chain does it even remotely look like I argued in favor of the bans discussed in the OP?
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        You are arguing about the harms of transitioning in a thread about how talking about it online is being suppressed. It seems pretty clear your priorities are controlling other people, not access to information.
  - KittenInABox 1y ago
    Note how I was focused on the idea that "given the life outcomes of trans people" and that's what you didn't address.
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      What didn't I address? The fact that trans people have worse life outcomes than cis people? That's such a well documented health disparity I didn't feel the need to links sources, but if you insist: Higher rates of suicidality: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ ~4x the rate of depression: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2824336#:~:text=Of%20the%20total%20sample%20of,past%2012%20months%20or%20lifetime). https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Even if these disparities are due to discrimination, those disparities still exist. We don't measure health outcomes based on what hypothetically would happen in an ideal world where people genuinely do not recognize or distinguish between the sexes. We measure health outcomes based on what happens in real world.
      - seethedeaduu 1y ago
        The idea that repressors have the same life outcomes as non dysphoric cis people seems dubious.
        Manuel_D 1y ago
        For the third time, desisters are non-dysphoric cis people. They are not repressing a trans identity. If they still feel gender dysphoria living as their cis gender they have, by definition, not desisted.
        kennywinker 1y ago
        Desisting is no longer seeking medical or social transition. It says nothing about how you feel. You’re making that jump, but that’s not something you or anybody can know.
        1y ago
kennywinker 1y ago
Seems like you’re saying “society treats trans people badly, so we should prevent people from transitioning” Coulda said the same about homosexuality ~30 years ago. It’s a bad reason then, it’s a bad reason now.
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  Again, these people are not prevented from transitioning. A minority, about 20%, do transition as adults. The rest no longer harbor desire to live as a different gender.
  - seethedeaduu 1y ago
    People have explained to you previously why this claim is false, yet you keep repeating it over and over. You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line). You already know this.
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      Neither of the two things you asserted are true. > You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. These children met the criteria for GID in the contemporary iteration of the DSM. The author of the study I linked would go on to write the criteria for gender dysphoria in the DSM-V. The idea that we'd see a substantially different rate of desistence if the DSM-V was used is not likely: the author of the study has stated that most of the children would have met the criteria for gender dysphoria under the DSM-V. > You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line) The study followed up with patients for an average of over 10 years. Do you have any actual evidence that a significant portion of desisters in this study transitioned later in life? Or are you just stating this without evidence? People have not offered a good explanation why these rates of desistence are false. They either insist that the criteria used was wrong, or baselessly claim that desisters are repressing a desire to transition.

Given the disparity in life outcomes between trans people and cis people, the idea that the desisters would have been better off transitioning is quite the bold speculation.

KittenInABox 1y ago

How much can the disparity in life outcomes be attributed to a trans person needing to undergo a second puberty in a society where doing so is discriminated against? I feel like as a society we put trans people in a situation where it is controversial for them to transition as children, but also controversial for them to transition as adults. (The notion of a man in a dress no longer exists if the man never had male puberty, but not only is it controversial for such a boy to never have male puberty, we villainize the now-man's attempts to become a woman!) But then we say that outcomes for trans people are bad so them staying in the closet is good. Which is weird, because the cause of the bad outcomes is that there is no stage of their life where trans people can transition noncontroversially.

Manuel_D 1y ago
Desisters are not "still in the closet". They have become comfortable in their cis gender and no longer want to transition. Many (~60% of the sample) live happily as same-sex attracted cis people.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  And so how does all of this prove that it should be illegal to speak about transitioning anywhere kids might read? Because that is what is at stake with these rulings
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    No, I don't think it should be illegal to speak about transitioning. Where in this comment chain does it even remotely look like I argued in favor of the bans discussed in the OP?
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      You are arguing about the harms of transitioning in a thread about how talking about it online is being suppressed. It seems pretty clear your priorities are controlling other people, not access to information.
- KittenInABox 1y ago
  Note how I was focused on the idea that "given the life outcomes of trans people" and that's what you didn't address.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    What didn't I address? The fact that trans people have worse life outcomes than cis people? That's such a well documented health disparity I didn't feel the need to links sources, but if you insist: Higher rates of suicidality: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7011156/ ~4x the rate of depression: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2824336#:~:text=Of%20the%20total%20sample%20of,past%2012%20months%20or%20lifetime). https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Even if these disparities are due to discrimination, those disparities still exist. We don't measure health outcomes based on what hypothetically would happen in an ideal world where people genuinely do not recognize or distinguish between the sexes. We measure health outcomes based on what happens in real world.
    - seethedeaduu 1y ago
      The idea that repressors have the same life outcomes as non dysphoric cis people seems dubious.
      - Manuel_D 1y ago
        For the third time, desisters are non-dysphoric cis people. They are not repressing a trans identity. If they still feel gender dysphoria living as their cis gender they have, by definition, not desisted.
        kennywinker 1y ago
        Desisting is no longer seeking medical or social transition. It says nothing about how you feel. You’re making that jump, but that’s not something you or anybody can know.
        1y ago

kennywinker 1y ago

Seems like you’re saying “society treats trans people badly, so we should prevent people from transitioning” Coulda said the same about homosexuality ~30 years ago. It’s a bad reason then, it’s a bad reason now.

Manuel_D 1y ago
Again, these people are not prevented from transitioning. A minority, about 20%, do transition as adults. The rest no longer harbor desire to live as a different gender.
- seethedeaduu 1y ago
  People have explained to you previously why this claim is false, yet you keep repeating it over and over. You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line). You already know this.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    Neither of the two things you asserted are true. > You are counting kids with GNC behavior who never talked about transitioning themselves stopping said GNC behavior. These children met the criteria for GID in the contemporary iteration of the DSM. The author of the study I linked would go on to write the criteria for gender dysphoria in the DSM-V. The idea that we'd see a substantially different rate of desistence if the DSM-V was used is not likely: the author of the study has stated that most of the children would have met the criteria for gender dysphoria under the DSM-V. > You are also counting kids who end up repressing (some of which end up transitioning with worse outcomes years down the line) The study followed up with patients for an average of over 10 years. Do you have any actual evidence that a significant portion of desisters in this study transitioned later in life? Or are you just stating this without evidence? People have not offered a good explanation why these rates of desistence are false. They either insist that the criteria used was wrong, or baselessly claim that desisters are repressing a desire to transition.