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> Depending on your jurisdiction, there are messages you can't target to kids. Why should there be a special exemption for this? Because the idea that the only

> Depending on your jurisdiction, there are messages you can't target to kids. Why should there be a special exemption for this? Because the idea that the only acceptable gender norms a kid is allowed to be exposed to and express is the one tied to their genes is frankly a ridiculous concept. There's nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls. If you don't believe that harmless message should reach the ears of kids, then why? What is in that sort of message that you're afraid of?

bluefirebrand 1y ago
> There's nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls. If you don't believe that harmless message should reach the ears of kids, then why? I fully agree there's nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls I think the idea that a boy wearing dresses and playing with dolls must automatically be trans is actually very harmful and I do oppose that message reaching anyone
- LexiMax 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    > Do you believe that the mere concept of questioning your gender identity or expression is something that should be kept from the minds of minors? Not at all I just think that the clothes you choose to wear shouldn't have anything to do with gender identity They may be related because it might relate to how you choose to express your gender But the fact is that clothes are clothes, not genders
    - LexiMax 1y ago
      > Not at all Then ultimately you and I agree on the main crux of this conversation, the part that actually matters.
      - bluefirebrand 1y ago
        I don't think we do I'm vehemently against the "transing" of anyone who exhibits behavior or preferences that are outside of cultural norms for their biological sex They might be trans, yes. But they might not. I'm very very very against putting people in the trans category when they shouldn't be
        LexiMax 1y ago
        Again, gender identity and gender expression is something that is up to the individual. You don't label someone as trans, you ask them how they identify, just as if you were asking what name they go by. You and I are on the exact same page. If you still don't think so, please make the distinction clear.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - account42 1y ago
    It's also not for the kid's parents or teachers to label him/her. That's why there shouldn't be any invasive procedures until the kid is mentally capable of making that choice. Not to mention that making an informed choice here is literally impossible if the kid didn't even get a chance to experience their biological identity - you don't really know what it means to be a boy or girl until you go through puberty yourself.
    - LexiMax 1y ago
      You're not very good at this, are you. :)
School-Cotton 1y ago
“There’s nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls” is true, but it’s a very dishonest summary of what the transgender movement advocates for. A more honest example would be something like “children with a male anatomy might actually be girls, depending not on physical but rather on psychological characteristics (i.e. ‘gender identity’)”. That’s a completely different claim, and one that fewer people would agree with, so your post is more or less a motte and bailey.
- AbsenceOfChill 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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- LexiMax 1y ago
  My overarching question - the one that started this comment chain - explicitly mentioned gender expression and gender identity. It has been brought up by me several other times in this comment thread. I am not hiding what this discussion is ultimately about.
lelanthran 1y ago
> What is in that sort of message that you're afraid of? Your line questioning is sort of revealing that this only points you are wishing to score. I have, after all, not taken a position on targeted messages at children (I only pointed out that there are still restrictions on messages targeted to children). I have already clarified that the specific contentious "transgender issue" is "transgender treatment", and that the clear majority of people all over the world are opposed to that specific "transgender issue". I have not taken any position on whether or not children should be targeted with messages across the spectrum, ranging from the extreme on one end "It's okay for boys to play with dolls", to the extreme on the other "You will be happier after castration". The reason I have not taken any position on messages is because of the many times proponents use the former as examples of what the rules should allow while ignoring that the rule they are championing also allows the latter message. My position on the messages that children are to hear will always depend on the specific message. This is because children (even some young adults to, TBH) are impressionable! If I had adopted your method of arguing for/against a point, I would have asked "Why are you so afraid of having your access to children cut off?" but I did not. Since you appear to be arguing your point in bad faith, I'm just going to go ahead and ask it. If you had any faith that your message was the correct one you wouldn't be on the internet arguing for access to other people's children. Why are you so afraid of having the easily impressionable in society prevented from seeing your message? Are you really afraid that if you don't get to imprint them with your message at the correct age they might never buy it as an adult?
- trealira 1y ago
  >I have not taken any position on whether or not children should be targeted with messages across the spectrum, ranging from the extreme on one end "It's okay for boys to play with dolls", to the extreme on the other "You will be happier after castration". Mere gender non-conformity isn't enough for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, despite what you're claiming. These are the DSM criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children: --- A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be Criterion A1): 1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender). 2. In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing. 3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play. 4. A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender. 5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender. 6. In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities. 7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy. 8. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender. B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning. --- > If you had any faith that your message was the correct one you wouldn't be on the internet arguing for access to other people's children. Classy as ever implying that trans people are grooming children to be trans. It seems like the opposite happens to me: parents with attitudes like yours will attempt to keep the existence of trans people secret in an attempt to groom their child to be cis, but if their child is gender dysphoric, it's not going to work and they're just going to suffer worse dysphoria-induced distress during puberty and transition as adults.

bluefirebrand 1y ago

> There's nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls. If you don't believe that harmless message should reach the ears of kids, then why? I fully agree there's nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls I think the idea that a boy wearing dresses and playing with dolls must automatically be trans is actually very harmful and I do oppose that message reaching anyone

LexiMax 1y ago
[flagged]
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  > Do you believe that the mere concept of questioning your gender identity or expression is something that should be kept from the minds of minors? Not at all I just think that the clothes you choose to wear shouldn't have anything to do with gender identity They may be related because it might relate to how you choose to express your gender But the fact is that clothes are clothes, not genders
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    > Not at all Then ultimately you and I agree on the main crux of this conversation, the part that actually matters.
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      I don't think we do I'm vehemently against the "transing" of anyone who exhibits behavior or preferences that are outside of cultural norms for their biological sex They might be trans, yes. But they might not. I'm very very very against putting people in the trans category when they shouldn't be
      - LexiMax 1y ago
        Again, gender identity and gender expression is something that is up to the individual. You don't label someone as trans, you ask them how they identify, just as if you were asking what name they go by. You and I are on the exact same page. If you still don't think so, please make the distinction clear.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- account42 1y ago
  It's also not for the kid's parents or teachers to label him/her. That's why there shouldn't be any invasive procedures until the kid is mentally capable of making that choice. Not to mention that making an informed choice here is literally impossible if the kid didn't even get a chance to experience their biological identity - you don't really know what it means to be a boy or girl until you go through puberty yourself.
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    You're not very good at this, are you. :)

School-Cotton 1y ago

“There’s nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses and playing with dolls” is true, but it’s a very dishonest summary of what the transgender movement advocates for. A more honest example would be something like “children with a male anatomy might actually be girls, depending not on physical but rather on psychological characteristics (i.e. ‘gender identity’)”. That’s a completely different claim, and one that fewer people would agree with, so your post is more or less a motte and bailey.

AbsenceOfChill 1y ago
[dead]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
LexiMax 1y ago
My overarching question - the one that started this comment chain - explicitly mentioned gender expression and gender identity. It has been brought up by me several other times in this comment thread. I am not hiding what this discussion is ultimately about.

lelanthran 1y ago

> What is in that sort of message that you're afraid of? Your line questioning is sort of revealing that this only points you are wishing to score. I have, after all, not taken a position on targeted messages at children (I only pointed out that there are still restrictions on messages targeted to children). I have already clarified that the specific contentious "transgender issue" is "transgender treatment", and that the clear majority of people all over the world are opposed to that specific "transgender issue". I have not taken any position on whether or not children should be targeted with messages across the spectrum, ranging from the extreme on one end "It's okay for boys to play with dolls", to the extreme on the other "You will be happier after castration". The reason I have not taken any position on messages is because of the many times proponents use the former as examples of what the rules should allow while ignoring that the rule they are championing also allows the latter message. My position on the messages that children are to hear will always depend on the specific message. This is because children (even some young adults to, TBH) are impressionable! If I had adopted your method of arguing for/against a point, I would have asked "Why are you so afraid of having your access to children cut off?" but I did not. Since you appear to be arguing your point in bad faith, I'm just going to go ahead and ask it. If you had any faith that your message was the correct one you wouldn't be on the internet arguing for access to other people's children. Why are you so afraid of having the easily impressionable in society prevented from seeing your message? Are you really afraid that if you don't get to imprint them with your message at the correct age they might never buy it as an adult?

trealira 1y ago
>I have not taken any position on whether or not children should be targeted with messages across the spectrum, ranging from the extreme on one end "It's okay for boys to play with dolls", to the extreme on the other "You will be happier after castration". Mere gender non-conformity isn't enough for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, despite what you're claiming. These are the DSM criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children: --- A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be Criterion A1): 1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender). 2. In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing. 3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play. 4. A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender. 5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender. 6. In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities. 7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy. 8. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender. B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning. --- > If you had any faith that your message was the correct one you wouldn't be on the internet arguing for access to other people's children. Classy as ever implying that trans people are grooming children to be trans. It seems like the opposite happens to me: parents with attitudes like yours will attempt to keep the existence of trans people secret in an attempt to groom their child to be cis, but if their child is gender dysphoric, it's not going to work and they're just going to suffer worse dysphoria-induced distress during puberty and transition as adults.