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We’re watching the fire sale of America, like was imposed on Russia in the 90s, and resulted in one of the largest declines in life expectancy in the country’s

We’re watching the fire sale of America, like was imposed on Russia in the 90s, and resulted in one of the largest declines in life expectancy in the country’s history. I expect the same to happen here, including its eventual culmination in the rise of a Putin-like figure from the security state apparatus, after we similarly suffer a decade or more of internal collapse and humiliation.

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the people who promoted neoliberalism in Russia saw how it ended in authoritarian oligarchy- supported by a religious nationalism which displaced science and progressive democratic values - and decided same would be a good outcome for them personally if rolled out across the rest of the West. This is dense, but stunningly prescient. https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/12303102.pdf https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/1230310... While things are undoubtedly bad in the US, Trump's grip on everything - including personal health - is far more tenuous than Yeltsin's was. And (ironically) the US has more of a history of violent resistance and agitation for both worker rights and civil rights. The US has always been a soft economic dictatorship. But a lot of people still expect a functioning social contract, and they're going to become increasingly angry as that disappears. It's a much more complicated picture than the one in Russia, which has essentially been the same kind of violent autocratic monarchy for centuries, even as the set dressing around it changed.
- chairmansteve 1y ago
  Your link looks very interesting. Thanks.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lyu07282 1y ago
  > But a lot of people still expect a functioning social contract, and they're going to become increasingly angry as that disappears I would argue that was happening way before Trump, it's precisely why he was elected. He didn't just scapegoat but also pretended to take their economic grievances seriously and was the only permitted political outlet to people's grievances. I think what happens is just the natural course of neoliberalism in the west, not any conscious long term strategy. That's why you can see the far-right gaining ground in every western country.
  - heavyset_go 1y ago
    It's a concerted effort enabled by social media platforms and rise of "alternative" media/news. The reason we're seeing it happen now is the peak user saturation of social media and because the machine has proven its formula works and can be translated across languages and cultures. I think a different ruling cohort would have tightened the screws of neoliberalism, but might have felt the need to keep up the facade of the legitimacy of the system they run and their own leadership, throwing us a bone every once in a while.
watwut 1y ago
I dont think America will have Putin like figure. It howver may have Trump like figure and Vance like figure. Security state apparatus in Russia filled different role. These guys are true Putin equivalents.
- adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
  imo the US future probably looks more like Hungary than Russia. There is strong alliance being created between racism/nationalism, religious fundamentalism, and science-denial, led by people who don't believe any of this, but have discovered that these groups are a substantial plurality of the country and can be turned into single issue voters
  - tomrod 1y ago
    Neodark ages indeed.
  - mattkevan 1y ago
    I think it started out like that - the previous generation knew it was bullshit bud did whatever got them votes / viewers / attention or whatever, long term consequences be damned. Younger generations grew up in it, never exposed to anything else and think it’s all true. Much scarier.
reliabilityguy 1y ago
> We’re watching the fire sale of America, This is very naive and a typical US-exceptionist take. EU is going through the same thing: the bill for neoliberal policies and globalization came due.
- tomrod 1y ago
  Not really. Just authoritarian scooping up capital, same as always after the end of hegemony. Next come the dark ages. I'm not sure it was ever as deliberate as Trump's losses.
- bugglebeetle 1y ago
  Neoliberalism and globalization were the state ideology of the American empire, of which the EU (was) a part, so of course they’re experiencing the same. They’ll now either re-align themselves with China (who capitalized best on the prior era) or face a similar fate.
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    How would realignment with China help EU? EU has the same systemic issues as the US, the o lot difference is a better (for now) social safety net, eg healthcare and unemployment.
- idiotsecant 1y ago
  No, it's like if the bill came due and instead we put it on a credit card and also ordered 6 extra porches on our other card.

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the people who promoted neoliberalism in Russia saw how it ended in authoritarian oligarchy- supported by a religious nationalism which displaced science and progressive democratic values - and decided same would be a good outcome for them personally if rolled out across the rest of the West. This is dense, but stunningly prescient. https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/12303102.pdf https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/1230310... While things are undoubtedly bad in the US, Trump's grip on everything - including personal health - is far more tenuous than Yeltsin's was. And (ironically) the US has more of a history of violent resistance and agitation for both worker rights and civil rights. The US has always been a soft economic dictatorship. But a lot of people still expect a functioning social contract, and they're going to become increasingly angry as that disappears. It's a much more complicated picture than the one in Russia, which has essentially been the same kind of violent autocratic monarchy for centuries, even as the set dressing around it changed.

chairmansteve 1y ago
Your link looks very interesting. Thanks.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lyu07282 1y ago
> But a lot of people still expect a functioning social contract, and they're going to become increasingly angry as that disappears I would argue that was happening way before Trump, it's precisely why he was elected. He didn't just scapegoat but also pretended to take their economic grievances seriously and was the only permitted political outlet to people's grievances. I think what happens is just the natural course of neoliberalism in the west, not any conscious long term strategy. That's why you can see the far-right gaining ground in every western country.
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  It's a concerted effort enabled by social media platforms and rise of "alternative" media/news. The reason we're seeing it happen now is the peak user saturation of social media and because the machine has proven its formula works and can be translated across languages and cultures. I think a different ruling cohort would have tightened the screws of neoliberalism, but might have felt the need to keep up the facade of the legitimacy of the system they run and their own leadership, throwing us a bone every once in a while.

watwut 1y ago

I dont think America will have Putin like figure. It howver may have Trump like figure and Vance like figure. Security state apparatus in Russia filled different role. These guys are true Putin equivalents.

adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
imo the US future probably looks more like Hungary than Russia. There is strong alliance being created between racism/nationalism, religious fundamentalism, and science-denial, led by people who don't believe any of this, but have discovered that these groups are a substantial plurality of the country and can be turned into single issue voters
- tomrod 1y ago
  Neodark ages indeed.
- mattkevan 1y ago
  I think it started out like that - the previous generation knew it was bullshit bud did whatever got them votes / viewers / attention or whatever, long term consequences be damned. Younger generations grew up in it, never exposed to anything else and think it’s all true. Much scarier.

reliabilityguy 1y ago

> We’re watching the fire sale of America, This is very naive and a typical US-exceptionist take. EU is going through the same thing: the bill for neoliberal policies and globalization came due.

tomrod 1y ago
Not really. Just authoritarian scooping up capital, same as always after the end of hegemony. Next come the dark ages. I'm not sure it was ever as deliberate as Trump's losses.
bugglebeetle 1y ago
Neoliberalism and globalization were the state ideology of the American empire, of which the EU (was) a part, so of course they’re experiencing the same. They’ll now either re-align themselves with China (who capitalized best on the prior era) or face a similar fate.
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  How would realignment with China help EU? EU has the same systemic issues as the US, the o lot difference is a better (for now) social safety net, eg healthcare and unemployment.
idiotsecant 1y ago
No, it's like if the bill came due and instead we put it on a credit card and also ordered 6 extra porches on our other card.