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How did widespread adoption of the libertarian techno-utopianism of the early web work out for society as a whole?
by CPLX 1y ago
How did widespread adoption of the libertarian techno-utopianism of the early web work out for society as a whole?
- dmix 1y agoIt existed only on the edges, usually in softer pragmatic forms, and stopped a lot of bad ideas as a pressure group. Characterizing the entire development of software and the internet in 90s-2000s as based on libertarian techno-utopinanism is largely manufactured narrative though. One I keep seeing pop up more and more. Largely by people trying to push poorly though out authoritarian gov-controlled internet by spinning the present internet (and parenting) as a product of some ideological radicalism.
- watwut 1y agoI got us 4chan and 8chan. It got us mass shootings and endless "they are just trolling, they are just teenagers, they are just ironic" chorus constantly bad faith defending the far right.
- mindslight 1y agoSo now that we've arrived at the far right, it's time to stop decentralized dissent and prevent the pendulum from swinging back? This seems like a terrible idea. And personally I'd say mass shootings are primarily encouraged by corporate mass media (including social media) glorifying the events and the shooters, rather than anonymous message board speech.
- overfeed 1y ago"arrived" and "swinging back"? You sound like an optimist; the dark-enlightenment Neo-Reactionary folk behind this are only just getting started.
- mindslight 1y ago"Arrived" because any further and we're into the far reich. "Swinging back" because I have to be an optimist that as the blatant autocratic authoritarianism rises there will be mass pushback. I do know how deep the sophomorically-justified rabbit hole goes, in that I've read a fair amount of dark enlightenment material. I actually credit Moldbug's writing for helping me go from defaulting to fundamentalist-axiomatic analysis (rightist) to leftist-constructive-qualitative analysis (leftist) - top down hierarchy is utterly incapable of responding to the complexity of the world, and only sounds so appealing post-facto when a singular coherent narrative has been written.
- soulofmischief 1y agoSociety gave us mass shootings. 4chan and other anonymous boards gave us protected speech. We've had mass shootings long before 4chan and they didn't start kicking off until they reached a critical threshold of interest due to social media and the almighty algorithm, not 4chan. Conflating these things is either ignorant or dishonest.
- andrepd 1y agoLmao, if there's anything that powers up the far-right is precisely algorithmic social media, not uncensored old-school message boards.
- tremon 1y agoAre you saying that the early web only existed in the USA? I did not witness a growth in mass shootings here in Europe from that time. Those things did not happen until Web 2.0.
- hooverd 1y agoTwitter is worse than 4chan now, at least 4chan is moderated.
- h2zizzle 1y ago4chan is not emblematic of the Internet Wild West. It was spawned by users ejected from a traditional forum, a scant half-year before Facebook was launched; it was, in fact, a sort of mirror to Facebook's response to that old internet, moot and Zuck being two sides of the same upper middle class white boy script kiddie coin. And, as with Facebook, the main issue was the ways in which each platform perpetuated old social ills, not the ways in which they freed users. Lastly, the tragedy of each is that it would have been entirely possible for ethical actors to takeover or fork each platform to scrub them of the ills and to promote the good. Bluesky is making a try of it vis a vis Twitter, and while my hopes aren't high that it will be an ultimate solution, I appreciate that there's finally been at least an attempt.
- quickthrowman 1y ago4chan was started because posters in the Something Awful anime subforum could not stop posting underage child porn which was obviously against the rules. To stop these disgusting freaks from polluting the SA forums with their child pornography and degeneracy, Richard ‘Lowtax’ Kyanka closed the anime subforum (ATDRW aka Anime Tentacle Death Rape Whorehouse) and moot started 4chan. So yeah, 4chans early legacy is ‘a bunch of pedophiles were mad they couldn’t share their abuse images’ which later transitioned into a love of fascism. What a great place… NOT. P.S. Adults who like anime are fundamentally broken, it’s children’s entertainment.
- sunaookami 1y agothis is excellent bait
- quickthrowman 1y agoThanks, I thought I deleted the last sentence but forgot to, oops ;) The general facts are true, my opinion of anime fans is my own
- sunaookami 1y agoNo the facts are not true, your origin history of 4chan is completely wrong. Moot was a massive weeb who wanted his own western Futaba alternative.
- quickthrowman 1y agoBoth of us can be right, moot is a massive ween and I’m sure he wanted a 2ch clone in English but it didn’t happen until ATDRW was shut down in 2003. I was an SA forums member when it happened.
- sunaookami 1y agoThis has nothing to do with what you said before. If you really were a SA member at that time you would know the history.
- sunaookami 1y ago>It got us mass shootings Americans will blame everything but their gun laws.
- CPLX 1y agoThe “freedom” of the early internet was bullshit, because it just meant “freedom to make money” and “freedom from having to deal with the consequences of your products on regular people.” It most decidedly did not mean “freedom from corporate hegemony” which is how we are where we are now, where children are matched with pedophile groomers[1] and delivered endless advertisements for freelance porn practitioners for profit. This version of freedom isn’t a free internet at all. That was just a PR pitch. And it wasn’t really a great idea to begin with, since it ends up leading to where we are now. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-06/instagram-urged-groomers-to-connect-with-minors-ftc-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-06/instagram...
- convolvatron 1y agoit depends on which early free internet you're talking about. mine strictly forbid commercial usage at all - and it was lovely.
- andrepd 1y ago> which is how we are where we are now, where children are matched with pedophile groomers[1] and delivered endless advertisements for freelance porn practitioners for profit. Yes, which is why we are not in the early internet anymore and fully into surveillance capitalism, algorithmic social media.
- CPLX 1y agoExactly. And the early internet lead directly here. Which is why going back makes about as much sense as picking up your baby and dropping it on the floor again.
- convolvatron 1y agoAll of those changes were choices. Like setting icann as a for profit entity at the behest of a corrupt libertarian faction. We didn’t have to destroy peer to peer communication. We didn’t have to cede email to google. None of those things were inevitable. Could have become anything really.
- raffael_de 1y agonot at all? because it didn't even get to a point where it could have worked out for society as a whole?
- palmfacehn 1y agoThe discussion will rehash the ideological issues around negative rights vs. positive rights.