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> I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even hav

> I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even have a simple 2D gaming engine built-in. I don't know. I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself. Exactly. This is what I think every time I see one of these old revival projects. I don't want a Spectrum, C64, Atari ST, etc...we have those, they're fairly easy to acquire and renovate. And are more than capable of being run on a FPGA. And there are dozens of projects built around the same old 6502, Z80, etc. Stop locking your perspective into the 80s to try to recapture that nostalgia. No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild.

markus_zhang 1y ago
I have always wanted to learn to build a (relatively modern) computer like the one you described: - Some 32-bit CPU, whatever, anything that is a bit easy to program through C/ASM, just to make sure there is no weird kirks. - Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers. - Some 256MB - 512MB memory should be good enough. - Has an OS, some programming languages, some tools, a good editor, etc. This is like the Ben Eater 8-bit computer in adrenaline. It is probably a LOT of work just to figure out how to source the correct components, and build the thing, then a LOT more work to write drivers for them, and MORE work to write OS and compilers and tools for them. We can't use Linux because it has memory protection all over the place. We need something that newbies can poke and peek into, and simply reset the CPU if something is wrong, just like the micro computers in the 70s/80s. We DO want capable compilers and interpreters (e.g. C/Python) and good tools (like, some editors that have good auto-complete at least). It's a bit like building a pad or a mobile phone, but without all those commercial consideration. Nowadays, to build a pad or a mobile phone, if I'm not mistaken, one simply push Android into the chipsets and call it a day, which is not what I want. But what I want probably doesn't make $$ so no one is going to do it.
- nolist_policy 1y ago
  What is wrong with an raspberry Pi pico? If you need more ram: https://jaycarlson.net/embedded-linux/ https://jaycarlson.net/embedded-linux/ (just ignore the Linux part)
  - markus_zhang 1y ago
    Yeah it works fine if we ignore the Linux part. Guess I might be thinking too much.
- deaddodo 1y ago
  > Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers. You wouldn’t even need that if you released it as an all-in-one like the hobbyist machines of yore (C64, speccy, etc). Just give it a relatively decent cherry MX built-in with swappable keyblocks. Add a USB hub for HID devices and include a basic HID driver, and include HDMI.
hoistbypetard 1y ago
> No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild. Isn't a pi awfully close to that, at least in spirit? For my 10 year-old's science project, I bought a trio of interesting sensors off amazon, showed her a diagram of the GPIO pins and a diagram of the sensor pins, explained how to map between the two, and had her draw it out with colored pencils. Then I burned a fresh raspbian image onto a sd card, connected a keyboard, mouse, and tv, and helped her figure out how to read the GPIO pins in python. The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s, but more accessible because I didn't have to deal with weird serial/parallel junk or with putting together a PCB for the slots. It does sound like this crew harbors ambitions of moving past nostalgia to embracing that spirit a little more, but I don't personally feel like that's lacking in the Pi ecosystem, at least...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deaddodo 1y ago
  It’s similar on the hobbyist interest side, sure. But generally gathers more from the hardware hobbyists than software. This is because the Broadcom SoC is somewhat awful to do bare metal on (mostly due to anything beyond a framebuffer being mostly locked off), so you’re limited to using Linux for full capabilities. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely a different environment than something like BASIC as your bootrom, or direct hardware poking you’d get from the old hobbyist machines.
- taylodl 1y ago
  > The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s Except back then you were doing all the discovering and figuring stuff out without any help from your parents. At least that's the way it was in my circle of friends. When a 10-year-old is able to do everything you did without any assistance from an adult, then we'll have the spirit of the Commodore 64.
usefulcat 1y ago
The hardware is the easy part. But if you want a selection of software such as exists for the C64, that takes a lot more time and of course there’s no guarantee that it will ever come to pass.
- deaddodo 1y ago
  If you’re trying to make yourself into a massive company off of it, sure the interest definitely doesn’t exist and you should forget it. If you look at the amount of interest projects like the openpandora, the retro rereleases, etc get; there’s plenty enough for something to hack around on. You would just have to release it as a side/passion project with modest revenue projections.
zeroc8 1y ago
That's what I want too. But I fear that even if such a machine existed, the spirit wouldn't be there. Just like no one forms bands or makes personal websites anymore.

markus_zhang 1y ago

I have always wanted to learn to build a (relatively modern) computer like the one you described: - Some 32-bit CPU, whatever, anything that is a bit easy to program through C/ASM, just to make sure there is no weird kirks. - Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers. - Some 256MB - 512MB memory should be good enough. - Has an OS, some programming languages, some tools, a good editor, etc. This is like the Ben Eater 8-bit computer in adrenaline. It is probably a LOT of work just to figure out how to source the correct components, and build the thing, then a LOT more work to write drivers for them, and MORE work to write OS and compilers and tools for them. We can't use Linux because it has memory protection all over the place. We need something that newbies can poke and peek into, and simply reset the CPU if something is wrong, just like the micro computers in the 70s/80s. We DO want capable compilers and interpreters (e.g. C/Python) and good tools (like, some editors that have good auto-complete at least). It's a bit like building a pad or a mobile phone, but without all those commercial consideration. Nowadays, to build a pad or a mobile phone, if I'm not mistaken, one simply push Android into the chipsets and call it a day, which is not what I want. But what I want probably doesn't make $$ so no one is going to do it.

nolist_policy 1y ago
What is wrong with an raspberry Pi pico? If you need more ram: https://jaycarlson.net/embedded-linux/ https://jaycarlson.net/embedded-linux/ (just ignore the Linux part)
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  Yeah it works fine if we ignore the Linux part. Guess I might be thinking too much.
deaddodo 1y ago
> Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers. You wouldn’t even need that if you released it as an all-in-one like the hobbyist machines of yore (C64, speccy, etc). Just give it a relatively decent cherry MX built-in with swappable keyblocks. Add a USB hub for HID devices and include a basic HID driver, and include HDMI.

hoistbypetard 1y ago

> No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild. Isn't a pi awfully close to that, at least in spirit? For my 10 year-old's science project, I bought a trio of interesting sensors off amazon, showed her a diagram of the GPIO pins and a diagram of the sensor pins, explained how to map between the two, and had her draw it out with colored pencils. Then I burned a fresh raspbian image onto a sd card, connected a keyboard, mouse, and tv, and helped her figure out how to read the GPIO pins in python. The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s, but more accessible because I didn't have to deal with weird serial/parallel junk or with putting together a PCB for the slots. It does sound like this crew harbors ambitions of moving past nostalgia to embracing that spirit a little more, but I don't personally feel like that's lacking in the Pi ecosystem, at least...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
deaddodo 1y ago
It’s similar on the hobbyist interest side, sure. But generally gathers more from the hardware hobbyists than software. This is because the Broadcom SoC is somewhat awful to do bare metal on (mostly due to anything beyond a framebuffer being mostly locked off), so you’re limited to using Linux for full capabilities. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely a different environment than something like BASIC as your bootrom, or direct hardware poking you’d get from the old hobbyist machines.
taylodl 1y ago
> The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s Except back then you were doing all the discovering and figuring stuff out without any help from your parents. At least that's the way it was in my circle of friends. When a 10-year-old is able to do everything you did without any assistance from an adult, then we'll have the spirit of the Commodore 64.

usefulcat 1y ago

The hardware is the easy part. But if you want a selection of software such as exists for the C64, that takes a lot more time and of course there’s no guarantee that it will ever come to pass.

deaddodo 1y ago
If you’re trying to make yourself into a massive company off of it, sure the interest definitely doesn’t exist and you should forget it. If you look at the amount of interest projects like the openpandora, the retro rereleases, etc get; there’s plenty enough for something to hack around on. You would just have to release it as a side/passion project with modest revenue projections.

zeroc8 1y ago

That's what I want too. But I fear that even if such a machine existed, the spirit wouldn't be there. Just like no one forms bands or makes personal websites anymore.