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The Mega65 was a stab at this idea - a self contained modernized version of the old 8-bit computer while trying to maintain backwards compatibility with C64 pro

The Mega65 was a stab at this idea - a self contained modernized version of the old 8-bit computer while trying to maintain backwards compatibility with C64 programs. https://mega65.org https://mega65.org

amichail 1y ago
There was no need to include a floppy drive though. Also, Python would have been better than BASIC as the built-in default language.
- kevindamm 1y ago
  What you're describing sounds a lot like the OLPC XO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO
- killerstorm 1y ago
  I don't think Python is better than BASIC. It's more powerful, sure, but it's crazy complex and fussy. Wrong punctuation and your code doesn't work. If you want Python just use modern laptop, no need to retro anything. BASIC has command-like statements, no complexity like lambda, classes, modules, etc.
  - amichail 1y ago
    Having a computer that boots directly into a built-in programming language is still compelling though. It encourages the user to learning programming and develop their own apps.
  - mceachen 1y ago
    Are you remembering the same BASIC that I’m remembering? With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. You were forced to build everything twice or thrice if you wanted a final product that wasn’t embarrassing. Just not having line numbers cooked in is a total game changer. And no GOTO.
    - zozbot234 1y ago
      > With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. Yup, even for the old 8-bit computers FORTH would've been a lot more elegant than BASIC. But back in the day BASIC came with highly valued conveniences such as a soft-float implementation that meant support for the "desk calculator" use case was available out of the box, and users could just go on from there.
    - graydoubt 1y ago
      I had a C16, and later a C128D (and therefore a C64). The C64 had the most limited BASIC of them all, with v2.0. So many advanced features were hidden behind PEEK/POKE. With BASIC 3.5 on the C16, they added the RENUMBER command, which made refactoring much easier, and it had a SOUND command, despite having a much simpler DSP implementation. The C128 had BASIC v7.0, which included a sprite editor, and much more advanced SOUND command. If they upgraded the C64's BASIC to 7.0, that would already make a lot of things much more accessible.
    - killerstorm 1y ago
      I mean it's a better language for middle-school kids. They shouldn't be concerned with refactoring. Important thing about BASIC is that each "command" does a rather limited amount of "stuff". In that way it is kinda similar to assembly language.
      - zozbot234 1y ago
        Plenty of elementary and middle-school kids learned LOGO which is a vastly more elegant language than BASIC. (It's essentially a LISP with different syntax, the one thing that's inadvisable about it for modern purposes is its use of dynamic scope.)
        killerstorm 1y ago
        I think understand of programming as a sequence of commands is necessary before you go to abstractions. BASIC's GOTO is a feature, not a bug: that's how assembly work. As an adult I'd strongly prefer Lisp over Basic. But I appreciate Lisp or lambda calculus elegance after I spent some time with more basic kind of stuff. Going to higher abstractions right away won't have the same effect
- glimshe 1y ago
  Python would be the wrong choice. BASIC is the ultimate "batteries included" language. No weirdness hidden behind dynamic types and you can make full games with graphics and sounds (in most implementations) without installing a single external library. BASIC is feature-poor by design and beginners can quickly fully master it. And there are classic variants without line numbers (no need for GOTOs) for those who hate them. IMHO, humanity is yet to build a better beginner language, at least if you look at the late BASICs such as QuickBASIC.
- snvzz 1y ago
  YMMV but I do welcome the floppy drive. Besides being integral to the experience / faithful to the prototype C65, it is remarkably reliable storage media that's well-suited for this class of machine, which have very few KBs of RAM.
PaulHoule 1y ago
See also https://www.commanderx16.com/ https://www.commanderx16.com/ Which is based on the 6502-compatible 65C816 but used a simple banking scheme instead of the broken 24-bit address space that chip natively supports (no 24-bit index registers) The way video memory works in it is really clever and lets it really surpass 1980s machines in many ways. My favorite retrocomputer though has to be https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/AgonLight2/open-source-hardware https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/AgonLight2/o... which is priced right though it doesn't have the keyboard and instead based on the eZ80 which really does extend the Z-80 with 24-bit registers so that you can use all the RAM easily.
- CTOSian 1y ago
  The guys behind Olimex are top chaps! Their products are not only affordable, also OpenSource as well! Nothing good came so far by the C= or Amiga copyrights...
  - snvzz 1y ago
    I think a better comparison would be with e.g. the miSTer and the many cores its ecosystem maintains, all open source HDL.

amichail 1y ago

There was no need to include a floppy drive though. Also, Python would have been better than BASIC as the built-in default language.

kevindamm 1y ago
What you're describing sounds a lot like the OLPC XO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO
killerstorm 1y ago
I don't think Python is better than BASIC. It's more powerful, sure, but it's crazy complex and fussy. Wrong punctuation and your code doesn't work. If you want Python just use modern laptop, no need to retro anything. BASIC has command-like statements, no complexity like lambda, classes, modules, etc.
- amichail 1y ago
  Having a computer that boots directly into a built-in programming language is still compelling though. It encourages the user to learning programming and develop their own apps.
- mceachen 1y ago
  Are you remembering the same BASIC that I’m remembering? With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. You were forced to build everything twice or thrice if you wanted a final product that wasn’t embarrassing. Just not having line numbers cooked in is a total game changer. And no GOTO.
  - zozbot234 1y ago
    > With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. Yup, even for the old 8-bit computers FORTH would've been a lot more elegant than BASIC. But back in the day BASIC came with highly valued conveniences such as a soft-float implementation that meant support for the "desk calculator" use case was available out of the box, and users could just go on from there.
  - graydoubt 1y ago
    I had a C16, and later a C128D (and therefore a C64). The C64 had the most limited BASIC of them all, with v2.0. So many advanced features were hidden behind PEEK/POKE. With BASIC 3.5 on the C16, they added the RENUMBER command, which made refactoring much easier, and it had a SOUND command, despite having a much simpler DSP implementation. The C128 had BASIC v7.0, which included a sprite editor, and much more advanced SOUND command. If they upgraded the C64's BASIC to 7.0, that would already make a lot of things much more accessible.
  - killerstorm 1y ago
    I mean it's a better language for middle-school kids. They shouldn't be concerned with refactoring. Important thing about BASIC is that each "command" does a rather limited amount of "stuff". In that way it is kinda similar to assembly language.
    - zozbot234 1y ago
      Plenty of elementary and middle-school kids learned LOGO which is a vastly more elegant language than BASIC. (It's essentially a LISP with different syntax, the one thing that's inadvisable about it for modern purposes is its use of dynamic scope.)
      - killerstorm 1y ago
        I think understand of programming as a sequence of commands is necessary before you go to abstractions. BASIC's GOTO is a feature, not a bug: that's how assembly work. As an adult I'd strongly prefer Lisp over Basic. But I appreciate Lisp or lambda calculus elegance after I spent some time with more basic kind of stuff. Going to higher abstractions right away won't have the same effect
glimshe 1y ago
Python would be the wrong choice. BASIC is the ultimate "batteries included" language. No weirdness hidden behind dynamic types and you can make full games with graphics and sounds (in most implementations) without installing a single external library. BASIC is feature-poor by design and beginners can quickly fully master it. And there are classic variants without line numbers (no need for GOTOs) for those who hate them. IMHO, humanity is yet to build a better beginner language, at least if you look at the late BASICs such as QuickBASIC.
snvzz 1y ago
YMMV but I do welcome the floppy drive. Besides being integral to the experience / faithful to the prototype C65, it is remarkably reliable storage media that's well-suited for this class of machine, which have very few KBs of RAM.

PaulHoule 1y ago

See also https://www.commanderx16.com/ https://www.commanderx16.com/ Which is based on the 6502-compatible 65C816 but used a simple banking scheme instead of the broken 24-bit address space that chip natively supports (no 24-bit index registers) The way video memory works in it is really clever and lets it really surpass 1980s machines in many ways. My favorite retrocomputer though has to be https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/AgonLight2/open-source-hardware https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/AgonLight2/o... which is priced right though it doesn't have the keyboard and instead based on the eZ80 which really does extend the Z-80 with 24-bit registers so that you can use all the RAM easily.

CTOSian 1y ago
The guys behind Olimex are top chaps! Their products are not only affordable, also OpenSource as well! Nothing good came so far by the C= or Amiga copyrights...
- snvzz 1y ago
  I think a better comparison would be with e.g. the miSTer and the many cores its ecosystem maintains, all open source HDL.