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Assuming this is a murder-suicide and not a mistake or malfunction somehow, it's very damning of the FAA's policy to revoke the pilot's licenses of anyone seeki

Assuming this is a murder-suicide and not a mistake or malfunction somehow, it's very damning of the FAA's policy to revoke the pilot's licenses of anyone seeking treatment for mental health issues. This was in India and thus not FAA jurisdiction, but it still would be a case where an untreated mental health issue lead to hundreds of deaths. By making pilots choose between their careers & medical treatment (since they can't continue as pilots if they seek treatment) the FAA encourages hiding mental illness by pilots. The Pilot Mental Health Campaign[1] has been advocating for legislation to change, HR 2591 the "Mental Health in Aviation Act of 2025"[2] has just been approved by committee for a general vote. I certainly hope it passes, and that other nations with dangerous policies prohibiting pilots from seeking treatment change as well. [1] https://www.pmhc.org/ https://www.pmhc.org/ [2] https://www.congress.gov/119/bills/hr2591/BILLS-119hr2591ih.pdf https://www.congress.gov/119/bills/hr2591/BILLS-119hr2591ih....

nelox 1y ago
Psychopathy isn’t the category you’re thinking of I’m sure.
breadwinner 1y ago
Wouldn't it be better to provide such pilots alternate career paths? That way they can still make a living and the traveling public is not placed under unnecessary risk.
- dewarrn1 1y ago
  A “dead airspace”, perhaps?
hollerith 1y ago
No, it is not damning evidence or strong evidence either way. It would be strong evidence only if treatment significantly reduces the probability of a pilot's committing suicide.
- tethys 1y ago
  > if treatment significantly reduces the probability of a pilot's committing suicide Psychotherapy significantly reduces the risk of suicide. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6389707/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6389707/
  - varjag 1y ago
    Does it bring the risk of suicide to general population baseline? And if not would you still want the affected people be responsible for hundreds of lives?
    - ckw 1y ago
      It doesn't look like it: it says that the risk of suicide attempt for those experiencing depression decreases 37% with psychotherapy. But the baseline 12 month suicide risk is ~14/100k, while those experiencing major depressive disorder are at ~120/100k. So ~5 fold elevated risk after psychotherapy.
cpncrunch 1y ago
>since they can't continue as pilots if they seek treatment) You have your facts wrong. Pilots can and do fly if they have mental health diagnoses, as long as they are well managed and there is no history of psychosis or suidical ideation. This is how it should be. https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/a...
- sillysaurusx 1y ago
  On the contrary: https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k The whole reason a pilot made that video is because there’s a huge problem in the airline industry right now.
  - throw0101a 1y ago
    Xyla Foxlin lost her PPL because her IUD was replaced, and how the new one (initially) released chemicals caused mood changes: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj0H8oVS7qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj0H8oVS7qg
    - repeekad 1y ago
      A must watch for anyone interested in pilots and mental health Many of her videos were about her dream of being a pilot, and a few trolls on the internet reporting her grounded them
  - cpncrunch 1y ago
    Looking at the transcript, it seems to confirm the link I posted, that there is a path back to flying, and that the FAA approves antidepressants.
  - gamblor956 1y ago
    On the contrary, that video actually supports the OP's claim. A pilot with a well-managed mental condition would be allowed to fly. So, a pilot with depression over the loss of a parent would still be allowed to fly. But a pilot with suicidal ideations, or taking hallucinogens, like Emerson from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509 (the flight discussed in the linked video), would not be allowed to fly. And that's exactly the way it should be... The issue is that many pilots don't seek treatment for mental issues because they imagine that they'll be grounded if they do, even though FAA policy, and most airlines' policy, is to allow them to continue flying.
noqc 1y ago
The murder suicide angle isn't particularly worthy of assumption yet. Have you ever put your phone in the fridge? Pilots deactivate the fuel cutoff at the end of the final taxi to the gate. This makes flipping these switches a practiced maneuver, capable of being performed without conscious thought, regardless of whether they came with safety locks installed. Brain farts are a real phenomenon, and an accidental fuel cutoff most closely resembles the transcript from within the cockpit. The report is actually a little cagey about whether the locks were properly installed on these switches. Said locks are supposedly optional. Until I receive a more direct confirmation that the switches were installed with their full safety features, I will assume that it is more likely for the plane to have had improperly installed switches than not, given that the shutoff was the reason for the crash, and if they turn out to have been installed, I will assume that simple pilot error is responsible until a motive for murder is found. The pilots lives are under quite a lot of scrutiny, and I do not believe that a motive for murder is likely to be found.
- tim333 1y ago
  Turning the fuel off seems roughly equivalent to turning the ignition off when you've parked your car. It's really something rather unlikely to do as a brain fart during takeoff.
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
    Most commercial aircraft have quite a few more buttons, knobs, levers, dials, etc than a car.
    - grepfru_it 1y ago
      You have to lift and turn these knobs. Hard pressed to think of other knobs like this one. Especially that there are none like it anywhere near those cutoff switches. It seems intentionally designed this way
    - knifie_spoonie 1y ago
      Commercial aircraft pilots are also much better trained than car drivers.
sillysaurusx 1y ago
First of all, thank you for calling attention to this. You’re absolutely right, despite what others are saying here. That’s why there’s a movement for reforms. Secondly, yes, it was likely a deliberate action to cut off the fuel switches, as you say. You are absolutely right that there’s an epidemic in the airline industry that forces pilots to stay quiet rather than risk their careers if they’re dealing with mental health issues. In a sibling comment: “shouldn’t they be given alternate career paths?” No. Perpetuating the myth that people with mental health issues are somehow broken beyond repair is mistaken. Current policy lead directly to that one fellow to lock the cockpit door and slam the plane into a hillside. If Air India 171 has any chance of being a mental health issue today, it should be highlighted and explored. You’re exactly right to be doing that, and thank you. Anyone who disagrees with this should watch https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k. It’s a video from a well-respected pilot. The whole point of the video is that aviation forces people to conceal their problems instead of seek treatment, and that this has to change.
- gamblor956 1y ago
  Sorry, that conclusion is just silly. I know people in the airline industry (some pilots and a number of flight attendants) and the problem is not that they're forced to conceal mental issues. The problem is that many people in aviation imagine that they need to conceal their problems. And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the opposite. Emerson (the suicidal pilot in the video from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509) self-medicated himself using hallucinogenic substances and developed suicidal ideations, because he didn't seek treatment (like therapy) for his mental issues after the death of a friend. If he had sought treatment, he'd still be flying today because he wouldn't have tried to kill several dozen people, and he would have learned to cope with his depression.
  - sillysaurusx 1y ago
    > And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the opposite. I have no idea how this video’s chapter 6 can be titled "a call for change" and then you still deny that the video is saying there’s something desperately wrong with the aviation industry. All I can think of saying is that you’re mistaken. It’s proof of exactly what the video is saying needs to change. We’ll have to agree to disagree. I feel bad for all the pilots who have to deal with this kind of attitude about mental health issues, as if suicidal ideation should somehow disqualify someone from working in their chosen profession. People in the military are allowed to feel suicidal. Your doctor is allowed to feel suicidal. The guy next to you on the road is allowed to feel suicidal. But pilots? Nope. It’s treated as this unspeakable awful thing, and you’re forcing people to get "treatment" where they report "yes, that totally worked" (a lie) or else suffer consequences. If you don’t see how backwards that is, no words of mine will persuade you otherwise. Why argue so vehemently that treatment should be denied to people? That’s what you’re doing by saying there’s no problem and that nothing needs to change. I assure you, the pilot in the video likely knows far better than your friends. That’s why he made the video.
twoodfin 1y ago
For anyone who didn’t already know, this concern is a key plot point in the second season of HBO’s “comedy” series The Rehearsal. Personally, found it simultaneously one of the greatest and most insane seasons of television ever. YMMV.
sabujp 1y ago
Captain Steve discusses mental health issues amongst pilots during his discussion of the AI events after this most recent news. He's a trained counselor who got into counseling pilots exactly because of mental health issues he's seen with colleagues and students https://youtu.be/MD64uYK926o?t=742 https://youtu.be/MD64uYK926o?t=742 .
WalterBright 1y ago
I don't see where the win is here: 1. If the pilot hides his mental illness, a mentally ill person is flying the airplane. 2. If the pilot gets treatment for his mental illness, a mentally ill person is flying the plane. P.S. When I was a teenager, I tried to join the Air Force to be a pilot like my dad. But since I wear glasses, there was no way. The AF was perfectly justified in not taking me, I understood that. I empathize with the rejected pilots, but that's the way it has to be. Life isn't fair. So I chose another career.
- golem14 1y ago
  well in case 2, the pilot get treatment and a doctor will decide if she is fit to fly. That's not bulletproof but still better than case 1. And to your other point, it's easier to give up on your dream job when young and start with a career that you are a fit for, than to be kicked out after a huge sunk cost and maybe even half way to retirement (illnesses might not be known until later in life). Just as disappointing, but not nearly as life destroying. But I salute you, fellow four-eyes!
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > But I salute you, fellow four-eyes! I was prescribed glasses when I was 5. Since then, they have preserved my eyes from damage from at least 3 incidents. I no longer mind them - I like the protection!
- dwattttt 1y ago
  Where's option 3: a pilot gets treatment for his mental illness and is signed off as safe to fly a plane? For all that it's a fallible process, that seems better than options 1 & 2.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Does it? I've never heard of anyone being cured of mental illness, just drugs that relieve the symptoms. The body develops resistance to the drugs, the drugs usually come with bad side effects, and patients often go off their meds. Pilots who develop a heart condition get their license revoked. Every pilot knows this. There's nothing fair about that, either. Fun fact - my Air Force dad told me that when an airplane was overhauled, the chief mechanic went up on the check ride. That ensured the job was well done.

nelox 1y ago

Psychopathy isn’t the category you’re thinking of I’m sure.

breadwinner 1y ago

Wouldn't it be better to provide such pilots alternate career paths? That way they can still make a living and the traveling public is not placed under unnecessary risk.

dewarrn1 1y ago
A “dead airspace”, perhaps?

hollerith 1y ago

No, it is not damning evidence or strong evidence either way. It would be strong evidence only if treatment significantly reduces the probability of a pilot's committing suicide.

tethys 1y ago
> if treatment significantly reduces the probability of a pilot's committing suicide Psychotherapy significantly reduces the risk of suicide. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6389707/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6389707/
- varjag 1y ago
  Does it bring the risk of suicide to general population baseline? And if not would you still want the affected people be responsible for hundreds of lives?
  - ckw 1y ago
    It doesn't look like it: it says that the risk of suicide attempt for those experiencing depression decreases 37% with psychotherapy. But the baseline 12 month suicide risk is ~14/100k, while those experiencing major depressive disorder are at ~120/100k. So ~5 fold elevated risk after psychotherapy.

cpncrunch 1y ago

>since they can't continue as pilots if they seek treatment) You have your facts wrong. Pilots can and do fly if they have mental health diagnoses, as long as they are well managed and there is no history of psychosis or suidical ideation. This is how it should be. https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/a...

sillysaurusx 1y ago
On the contrary: https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k The whole reason a pilot made that video is because there’s a huge problem in the airline industry right now.
- throw0101a 1y ago
  Xyla Foxlin lost her PPL because her IUD was replaced, and how the new one (initially) released chemicals caused mood changes: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj0H8oVS7qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj0H8oVS7qg
  - repeekad 1y ago
    A must watch for anyone interested in pilots and mental health Many of her videos were about her dream of being a pilot, and a few trolls on the internet reporting her grounded them
- cpncrunch 1y ago
  Looking at the transcript, it seems to confirm the link I posted, that there is a path back to flying, and that the FAA approves antidepressants.
- gamblor956 1y ago
  On the contrary, that video actually supports the OP's claim. A pilot with a well-managed mental condition would be allowed to fly. So, a pilot with depression over the loss of a parent would still be allowed to fly. But a pilot with suicidal ideations, or taking hallucinogens, like Emerson from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509 (the flight discussed in the linked video), would not be allowed to fly. And that's exactly the way it should be... The issue is that many pilots don't seek treatment for mental issues because they imagine that they'll be grounded if they do, even though FAA policy, and most airlines' policy, is to allow them to continue flying.

noqc 1y ago

The murder suicide angle isn't particularly worthy of assumption yet. Have you ever put your phone in the fridge? Pilots deactivate the fuel cutoff at the end of the final taxi to the gate. This makes flipping these switches a practiced maneuver, capable of being performed without conscious thought, regardless of whether they came with safety locks installed. Brain farts are a real phenomenon, and an accidental fuel cutoff most closely resembles the transcript from within the cockpit. The report is actually a little cagey about whether the locks were properly installed on these switches. Said locks are supposedly optional. Until I receive a more direct confirmation that the switches were installed with their full safety features, I will assume that it is more likely for the plane to have had improperly installed switches than not, given that the shutoff was the reason for the crash, and if they turn out to have been installed, I will assume that simple pilot error is responsible until a motive for murder is found. The pilots lives are under quite a lot of scrutiny, and I do not believe that a motive for murder is likely to be found.

tim333 1y ago
Turning the fuel off seems roughly equivalent to turning the ignition off when you've parked your car. It's really something rather unlikely to do as a brain fart during takeoff.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  Most commercial aircraft have quite a few more buttons, knobs, levers, dials, etc than a car.
  - grepfru_it 1y ago
    You have to lift and turn these knobs. Hard pressed to think of other knobs like this one. Especially that there are none like it anywhere near those cutoff switches. It seems intentionally designed this way
  - knifie_spoonie 1y ago
    Commercial aircraft pilots are also much better trained than car drivers.

sillysaurusx 1y ago

First of all, thank you for calling attention to this. You’re absolutely right, despite what others are saying here. That’s why there’s a movement for reforms. Secondly, yes, it was likely a deliberate action to cut off the fuel switches, as you say. You are absolutely right that there’s an epidemic in the airline industry that forces pilots to stay quiet rather than risk their careers if they’re dealing with mental health issues. In a sibling comment: “shouldn’t they be given alternate career paths?” No. Perpetuating the myth that people with mental health issues are somehow broken beyond repair is mistaken. Current policy lead directly to that one fellow to lock the cockpit door and slam the plane into a hillside. If Air India 171 has any chance of being a mental health issue today, it should be highlighted and explored. You’re exactly right to be doing that, and thank you. Anyone who disagrees with this should watch https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM?si=G39BwNy1zJEeUi2k. It’s a video from a well-respected pilot. The whole point of the video is that aviation forces people to conceal their problems instead of seek treatment, and that this has to change.

gamblor956 1y ago
Sorry, that conclusion is just silly. I know people in the airline industry (some pilots and a number of flight attendants) and the problem is not that they're forced to conceal mental issues. The problem is that many people in aviation imagine that they need to conceal their problems. And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the opposite. Emerson (the suicidal pilot in the video from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509) self-medicated himself using hallucinogenic substances and developed suicidal ideations, because he didn't seek treatment (like therapy) for his mental issues after the death of a friend. If he had sought treatment, he'd still be flying today because he wouldn't have tried to kill several dozen people, and he would have learned to cope with his depression.
- sillysaurusx 1y ago
  > And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the opposite. I have no idea how this video’s chapter 6 can be titled "a call for change" and then you still deny that the video is saying there’s something desperately wrong with the aviation industry. All I can think of saying is that you’re mistaken. It’s proof of exactly what the video is saying needs to change. We’ll have to agree to disagree. I feel bad for all the pilots who have to deal with this kind of attitude about mental health issues, as if suicidal ideation should somehow disqualify someone from working in their chosen profession. People in the military are allowed to feel suicidal. Your doctor is allowed to feel suicidal. The guy next to you on the road is allowed to feel suicidal. But pilots? Nope. It’s treated as this unspeakable awful thing, and you’re forcing people to get "treatment" where they report "yes, that totally worked" (a lie) or else suffer consequences. If you don’t see how backwards that is, no words of mine will persuade you otherwise. Why argue so vehemently that treatment should be denied to people? That’s what you’re doing by saying there’s no problem and that nothing needs to change. I assure you, the pilot in the video likely knows far better than your friends. That’s why he made the video.

twoodfin 1y ago

For anyone who didn’t already know, this concern is a key plot point in the second season of HBO’s “comedy” series The Rehearsal. Personally, found it simultaneously one of the greatest and most insane seasons of television ever. YMMV.

sabujp 1y ago

Captain Steve discusses mental health issues amongst pilots during his discussion of the AI events after this most recent news. He's a trained counselor who got into counseling pilots exactly because of mental health issues he's seen with colleagues and students https://youtu.be/MD64uYK926o?t=742 https://youtu.be/MD64uYK926o?t=742 .

WalterBright 1y ago

I don't see where the win is here: 1. If the pilot hides his mental illness, a mentally ill person is flying the airplane. 2. If the pilot gets treatment for his mental illness, a mentally ill person is flying the plane. P.S. When I was a teenager, I tried to join the Air Force to be a pilot like my dad. But since I wear glasses, there was no way. The AF was perfectly justified in not taking me, I understood that. I empathize with the rejected pilots, but that's the way it has to be. Life isn't fair. So I chose another career.

golem14 1y ago
well in case 2, the pilot get treatment and a doctor will decide if she is fit to fly. That's not bulletproof but still better than case 1. And to your other point, it's easier to give up on your dream job when young and start with a career that you are a fit for, than to be kicked out after a huge sunk cost and maybe even half way to retirement (illnesses might not be known until later in life). Just as disappointing, but not nearly as life destroying. But I salute you, fellow four-eyes!
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > But I salute you, fellow four-eyes! I was prescribed glasses when I was 5. Since then, they have preserved my eyes from damage from at least 3 incidents. I no longer mind them - I like the protection!
dwattttt 1y ago
Where's option 3: a pilot gets treatment for his mental illness and is signed off as safe to fly a plane? For all that it's a fallible process, that seems better than options 1 & 2.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Does it? I've never heard of anyone being cured of mental illness, just drugs that relieve the symptoms. The body develops resistance to the drugs, the drugs usually come with bad side effects, and patients often go off their meds. Pilots who develop a heart condition get their license revoked. Every pilot knows this. There's nothing fair about that, either. Fun fact - my Air Force dad told me that when an airplane was overhauled, the chief mechanic went up on the check ride. That ensured the job was well done.