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I thought the comparison to running was interesting. As an almost exclusively terrestrial mammal, there is a very natural way for us to run. No one is going to

by nkrisc 1y ago

I thought the comparison to running was interesting. As an almost exclusively terrestrial mammal, there is a very natural way for us to run. No one is going to discover than running on our arms and legs is faster, or something other than ”unnatural” way of running is faster. But that’s not really the case with swimming. We didn’t evolve a natural swimming instinct or form for speed. When I learned that (nearly?) all terrestrial mammals can swim to some degree (even ones that look like they shouldn’t be able to - like ungulates), I was a bit surprised, but it’s not too surprising upon reflection. But that got me thinking then: what is the best terrestrial mammalian body plan that also happens to be good for swimming? What terrestrial mammal would also be fast swimmers if they could learn and train for it as humans do? Maybe my thinking is clouded by anthrocentrism, but the human body plan which is good for bipedal running also seems to work out pretty well for swimming. Of course, top human swimming speeds are pretty terrible compared to human running speeds and the swimming speed of basically any other aquatic animal, but we’re not made for it!

ethan_smith 1y ago
Bears, particularly polar bears, are terrestrial mammals with impressive swimming capabilities - they can swim up to 60 miles without rest and use a modified dog paddle that's remarkably efficient.
- seszett 1y ago
  To be precise though the species is called Ursus maritimus and it is often considered a semi-aquatic species rather than just a terrestrial mammal.
CorrectHorseBat 1y ago
>No one is going to discover than running on our arms and legs is faster, or something other than ”unnatural” way of running is faster. Surprisingly not everyone seems to be convinced of that https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4928019/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4928019/
- codingdave 1y ago
  I just went down a small rabbit hole, watching some videos of quadrupedal running, and what struck me was how un-balanced the motion looked. Even the guy who is (one of) the world's fastest has this weird twist in his back while he is doing it, to make sure his knees and elbows don't smack together. That may be sustainable when you are young and strong, but I worry this guy, or anyone else who gets into this, is going to be wracked with long-term damage and in a lot of pain when older.
  - bmacho 1y ago
    It's okay if the best motion is not symmetric. The swimming in TFA isn't symmetric either.
- Rendello 1y ago
  A few years ago I tried out TikTok and quickly came to see that there are huge niches inside the platform that are barely even searchable or existent outside the app. One of which was these videos of people sprinting or galloping on all fours. It's fascinating and terrifying seeing people who've practiced do the movements, it's uncanny in both how natural and unnatural it can look. It seems to be an intersection of unconventional exercise enthusiasts and furry-types. Sprinting: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6S0ctkOixj8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6S0ctkOixj8 Galloping / jumping: https://old.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/ldxsoz/these_people_can_run_on_hands_and_feet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/ldxsoz/these_peo...
  - LoganDark 1y ago
    Holy shit, quadrupedal running is my new favorite skill.
  - quuxplusone 1y ago
    Very cool! Reminds me of Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" (2001), which did quadrupedal running with practical effects — harnesses, towed treadmills, all sorts of tricks — i.e., cheating, from the POV of this thread. :) "Behind the Scenes of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KighzjHkZtY&t=803s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KighzjHkZtY&t=803s "Ape School" starts at 9m35s. Quadrupedal running starts at 13m23s.
Etheryte 1y ago
This is a stretch for what you might consider terrestrial, but polar bears swim faster than olympic athletes. Moose also swim hella fast, so funnily enough it's the same guys in water as on land that you have to look out for.
- navbaker 1y ago
  I had no idea how enormous moose were until I had to go to Fairbanks a few years ago for a work thing. It was unreal sitting in line waiting to move through the gate at the air base and seeing a moose casually running down along the 8 foot fence along the perimeter and realizing it was taller than the fence!
  - fuzztester 1y ago
    Polar bears are huge too. IIRC, I read somewhere that they are the biggest species of bear (on average). Checked: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear
chrisco255 1y ago
Beavers, with their wide flat tails, are very good swimmers. Looking it up though it seems black bears are the fastest overall although I believe beavers are the fastest relative to their body size.
- nkrisc 1y ago
  I would definitely consider beavers to be at least partially aquatic, considering they lodge in aquatic environments and need to live near water.
  - chrisco255 1y ago
    They're terrestrial animals first and foremost, they spend most of their lives above and out of the water, unlike dolphins and whales, which are truly aquatic. That beavers choose to live near water is hardly unique. Most animals need to live near water. I understand they're highly adapted for river life, but they move and forage on land.
chrisco255 1y ago
The human body plan is also pretty good for climbing. The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments.
- bmacho 1y ago
  > The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments. I'd say it's our hand to make tools, our brain to plan, and out throat/mouth to communicate
- nkrisc 1y ago
  That doesn’t surprise me though, considering our ancestors and almost all of our closest relatives are arboreal. We are descended from climbers. Our lack of climbing ability relative to other primates makes us the odd ones out.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
    Strange comment. Strange because at the high end, I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c). On the other hand, the average human is very much less able to climb trees and other topologically similar objects than most apes. So I am not sure that it really makes sense to talk about "our lack of climbing ability" - in humans, it is unevenly exercised and thus shows huge range, but the best humans can climb in ways that I doubt most or any other apes could.
    - krisoft 1y ago
      > Strange comment. Not realy. It is pretty common to compare the average ability when we are comparing between species. For example when we say cheetahs can run at X m/s we don’t talk about the speed of the fastest cheetah who won the cheetah olympics. They just measured a few and we use that as a basis. > I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c). I don’t know what you base this on. Is this just a hunch? Are we talking here about the chances of a monkey randomly catching a fancy for that cliff? Because i agree that is unlikely to happen. But with a sufficintly trained and motivated one I wouldn’t be so sure.
cratermoon 1y ago
> When I learned that (nearly?) all terrestrial mammals can swim to some degree (even ones that look like they shouldn’t be able to - like ungulates) Even elephants can swim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpD40ewOyC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpD40ewOyC4
n4r9 1y ago
Hippos famously cannot swim, despite spending lots of time in water. They're too dense to float. There used to be a BBC filler video in the UK that featured an animation of hippos swimming from below. It was pure fantasy. In reality they hop along the bottom.
michaelhoney 1y ago
Otters are pretty good, and they're basically mustelid-shaped. Long and thin.

by nkrisc 1y ago

ethan_smith 1y ago

Bears, particularly polar bears, are terrestrial mammals with impressive swimming capabilities - they can swim up to 60 miles without rest and use a modified dog paddle that's remarkably efficient.

seszett 1y ago
To be precise though the species is called Ursus maritimus and it is often considered a semi-aquatic species rather than just a terrestrial mammal.

CorrectHorseBat 1y ago

>No one is going to discover than running on our arms and legs is faster, or something other than ”unnatural” way of running is faster. Surprisingly not everyone seems to be convinced of that https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4928019/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4928019/

codingdave 1y ago
I just went down a small rabbit hole, watching some videos of quadrupedal running, and what struck me was how un-balanced the motion looked. Even the guy who is (one of) the world's fastest has this weird twist in his back while he is doing it, to make sure his knees and elbows don't smack together. That may be sustainable when you are young and strong, but I worry this guy, or anyone else who gets into this, is going to be wracked with long-term damage and in a lot of pain when older.
- bmacho 1y ago
  It's okay if the best motion is not symmetric. The swimming in TFA isn't symmetric either.
Rendello 1y ago
A few years ago I tried out TikTok and quickly came to see that there are huge niches inside the platform that are barely even searchable or existent outside the app. One of which was these videos of people sprinting or galloping on all fours. It's fascinating and terrifying seeing people who've practiced do the movements, it's uncanny in both how natural and unnatural it can look. It seems to be an intersection of unconventional exercise enthusiasts and furry-types. Sprinting: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6S0ctkOixj8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6S0ctkOixj8 Galloping / jumping: https://old.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/ldxsoz/these_people_can_run_on_hands_and_feet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/ldxsoz/these_peo...
- LoganDark 1y ago
  Holy shit, quadrupedal running is my new favorite skill.
- quuxplusone 1y ago
  Very cool! Reminds me of Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" (2001), which did quadrupedal running with practical effects — harnesses, towed treadmills, all sorts of tricks — i.e., cheating, from the POV of this thread. :) "Behind the Scenes of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KighzjHkZtY&t=803s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KighzjHkZtY&t=803s "Ape School" starts at 9m35s. Quadrupedal running starts at 13m23s.

Etheryte 1y ago

This is a stretch for what you might consider terrestrial, but polar bears swim faster than olympic athletes. Moose also swim hella fast, so funnily enough it's the same guys in water as on land that you have to look out for.

navbaker 1y ago
I had no idea how enormous moose were until I had to go to Fairbanks a few years ago for a work thing. It was unreal sitting in line waiting to move through the gate at the air base and seeing a moose casually running down along the 8 foot fence along the perimeter and realizing it was taller than the fence!
- fuzztester 1y ago
  Polar bears are huge too. IIRC, I read somewhere that they are the biggest species of bear (on average). Checked: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear

chrisco255 1y ago

Beavers, with their wide flat tails, are very good swimmers. Looking it up though it seems black bears are the fastest overall although I believe beavers are the fastest relative to their body size.

nkrisc 1y ago
I would definitely consider beavers to be at least partially aquatic, considering they lodge in aquatic environments and need to live near water.
- chrisco255 1y ago
  They're terrestrial animals first and foremost, they spend most of their lives above and out of the water, unlike dolphins and whales, which are truly aquatic. That beavers choose to live near water is hardly unique. Most animals need to live near water. I understand they're highly adapted for river life, but they move and forage on land.

chrisco255 1y ago

The human body plan is also pretty good for climbing. The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments.

bmacho 1y ago
> The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments. I'd say it's our hand to make tools, our brain to plan, and out throat/mouth to communicate
nkrisc 1y ago
That doesn’t surprise me though, considering our ancestors and almost all of our closest relatives are arboreal. We are descended from climbers. Our lack of climbing ability relative to other primates makes us the odd ones out.
- PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
  Strange comment. Strange because at the high end, I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c). On the other hand, the average human is very much less able to climb trees and other topologically similar objects than most apes. So I am not sure that it really makes sense to talk about "our lack of climbing ability" - in humans, it is unevenly exercised and thus shows huge range, but the best humans can climb in ways that I doubt most or any other apes could.
  - krisoft 1y ago
    > Strange comment. Not realy. It is pretty common to compare the average ability when we are comparing between species. For example when we say cheetahs can run at X m/s we don’t talk about the speed of the fastest cheetah who won the cheetah olympics. They just measured a few and we use that as a basis. > I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c). I don’t know what you base this on. Is this just a hunch? Are we talking here about the chances of a monkey randomly catching a fancy for that cliff? Because i agree that is unlikely to happen. But with a sufficintly trained and motivated one I wouldn’t be so sure.

cratermoon 1y ago

> When I learned that (nearly?) all terrestrial mammals can swim to some degree (even ones that look like they shouldn’t be able to - like ungulates) Even elephants can swim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpD40ewOyC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpD40ewOyC4

n4r9 1y ago

Hippos famously cannot swim, despite spending lots of time in water. They're too dense to float. There used to be a BBC filler video in the UK that featured an animation of hippos swimming from below. It was pure fantasy. In reality they hop along the bottom.

michaelhoney 1y ago

Otters are pretty good, and they're basically mustelid-shaped. Long and thin.