8 ms·

Why is java still enabled in browsers by default anyway? Who would notice its absence in 2012?

• slig 14y ago
  There're some banks that still need them. The irony is that, since their applet is signed, the user must click and confirm that he trusts the thing every time. Hackers can leverage that users won't read a damn thing, they will just click next to build an applet with file system access. Why exploit flaws when users will simply click a trust your applet? I don't trust my bank with a signed applet (why the hell do they need that?), so obviously I only access my internet banking using a VM.
  • rbanffy 14y ago
    > I only access my internet banking using a VM Smart thing to do. Also, you can make the VM disk reset itself to a base state on every boot.
• PostOnce 14y ago
  Chrome asks for permission for Java to run, by default: http://support.google.com/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1247383 http://support.google.com/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ans...
  • amanvir 14y ago
    I think they should start doing that in Firefox too
    • ZoFreX 14y ago
      They are working on it - the feature exists, but isn't currently exposed through the GUI configuration as it has some issues. You can go to "about:config" and enable the option "plugins.click_to_play" if you want to see it. I disabled it as it caused issues with Flash for me, but I've straight up disabled the Java plugin anyway.
    • omh 14y ago
      Firefox has a separate feature which can completely disable plugins which are known to be malicious or vulnerable. The current list is at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/blocked/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/blocked/ They've definitely used this to block older Java versions, but in those cases there was always a newer version available that you could use instead.
      • justinschuh 14y ago
        Plugin management is actually a bit complicated, and in the case of Chrome we've had mulitple levels of it for years. The simplest is click-to-play, where the plugin is replaced with a graphic in the page that you can click to run it. This is the most convenient, but is vulnerable to click-jacking or other trickery. Then there's plugin blocking, which doesn't have the click-to-play weaknesses but is less convenient because you need to enable the plugin through a browser control (ie. infobar, page action, or context menu). Finally there's disabling, which just prevents the plugin from running at all. For out-of-date and perennially vulnerable plugins (like Java) Chrome uses the second mode, which blocks the plugin unless the user accepts it through an infobar. It's not a perfect defense, but we've found it to be extremely effective at preventing exploits because the vast majority of the users don't let the potentially vulnerable plugin run. I'd really like to see this approach catch on more broadly, but other browser makers are understandably cautious about how they should handle plugins.
        • omh 14y ago
          As a corporate sysadmin, I should say that the Chrome method is much better than the Firefox one. We often have slightly out of date plugins, simply because it takes a while to get new versions tested and rolled out. When Firefox blocks them it breaks functionality and can cause a few awkward problems. Generally that just means that the user will use IE instead, so the protection is lost.
          • justinschuh 14y ago
            I wasn't aware the blocking worked that way in Firefox. We considered going that route as well, but in our testing the optional block was nearly as effective as fully disabling.
    • justinschuh 14y ago
      I talked to some of the Mozilla security guys about it back in February at CanSecWest, since we've been blocking out-of-date and dangerous plugins (more than just Java) for a while in Chrome. They seemed in favor of doing it, so it's definitely on their radar.
  • dminor 14y ago
    Personally I think they should ship with 'Block All' as the default in the plugins settings.
    • TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
      I already have click-to-run turned on for Flash due to it screwing up page rendering in Chrome on Linux.
• hucker 14y ago
  I don't know how it works in the US, but in Norway most online banks can only be accessed through a Java applet where you enter SSN, password and token-code. Extremely frustrating since whether it works or not in Linux seems like a function of the day of the week, and, well, it's a Java applet.
  • rodolphoarruda 14y ago
    We have the same scenario in Brazil.
    • franze 14y ago
      well, in brazil you even have gbieh.dll - an undeletable, unkillable, always running, mysterious, "security" file/process from banco do brasil. http://www.file.net/process/gbieh.dll.html http://www.file.net/process/gbieh.dll.html that's even (slightly) worse than a java applet.
      • rodolphoarruda 14y ago
        yeah, Banco Itaú has its own DLL too. http://rodolphoarruda.pro.br/d/dll.jpg http://rodolphoarruda.pro.br/d/dll.jpg
        • slig 14y ago
          Can't tell if trolling or not. That's an URL and they can name it with whatever name they want (.dll, 1761,1238,196.htm, .php, etc), and has absolutely nothing to do with an actual process running on your machine.
        • ioquatix 14y ago
          Why don't you just switch to another Bank?
          • b-man 14y ago
            No so easy mate. Brazil has one of the largest bank concentration in the world, orchestraded of course by the central bank. We have the choice of 6 major banks, in this order of size -> Banco do Brasil, Itaú, Bradesco, BNDES, Caixa Econômica Federal, Santander They are all highly regulated and with very little incentive to innovate. So they can screw around and do pretty much nothing at all. The fascist/socialist banking system that exists across the globe is even more pronounced here. For those of you that can read portuguese, I recommend this article: http://www.mises.org.br/Article.aspx?id=1387 http://www.mises.org.br/Article.aspx?id=1387
• amboar 14y ago
  Yeah I don't even remember the last time I used a Java applet. I've disabled the plugins without any repercussions so far.
• justincormack 14y ago
  All those online meeting and screen sharing things that are so popular in the enterprise world...
• raesene2 14y ago
  Most corporates that I've seen make heavy use of Java applet based software for internal software (and have multiple versions installed as a result). Also I've seen a fair number of administrative interfaces for IT kit that work via Java Applets...
• hoogaguy 14y ago
  exactly my word.
• driverdan 14y ago
  I've had Java disabled in browsers for a long time and click to activate for other plugins. I've never noticed its absence. I understand from other comments that banks in some require Java. I have or have had accounts or credit cards with nearly all major banks in the USA and many smaller institutions and none have required any plugins. Some require 3rd party cookies to use services like bill pay or ACH transfers.
• abrahamsen 14y ago
  Danes. It is used by the government electronic id system (nemid), and is the only way to e.g. make corrections to your tax returns (they are by default filled by the tax authority). Most government and many private (e.g. banks) institutions use it. https://www.nemid.nu/om_nemid/about_nemid/ https://www.nemid.nu/om_nemid/about_nemid/
  • diminoten 14y ago
    Then enable it for those sites. Defaulting to enabled seems like overkill. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure my browser asks me every time it wants to run an applet, so I think that as current behavior is fine.
• Jamiecon 14y ago
  Anyone that wants to administer HP network gear via a web interface, to pick one example. But yeah, I take your point.
• danielweber 14y ago
  I have successfully avoided installing Java on many machines, even when installing browsers. The had to break down when it came time to build Android apps.
• zvrba 14y ago
  Norwegians. The BankID system is used by many online banking systems for 2-factor authentication.