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> it was one of the most horrific mass murder in history This implies intent. > One pilot asked “why did you turn them off?” and the other said “I didn’t.” T

> it was one of the most horrific mass murder in history This implies intent. > One pilot asked “why did you turn them off?” and the other said “I didn’t.” To me this reads like an unintentional error with colossol implications. Are you suggesting there was malicious intent and then a delibrately crafted denial by the perpetrator?

sillysaurusx 1y ago
I am, and I’m willing to stake my reputation on it. If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. Pilots are drilled from day one that the fuel switches are sacred. After a few accidents where one engine failed and the pilot accidentally turned off the remaining functional engine, the training was overhauled so that it would be impossible for it to be an easy action done by mistake. One pilot is required to ask the other for confirmation before toggling the switch, I believe. It wouldn’t be something you’d do from muscle memory.
- janice1999 1y ago
  > If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. It easy to say that when you know there's likely no way to prove or disprove whether it as an accident or not. Unless a pilot left a note stating his future intentions, there's no way to determine their state of mind.
  - sillysaurusx 1y ago
    Someone took their hand, pulled one spring-loaded switch into the off position, and then did it the other switch moments later. Is there any way that could be accidental? If there was no mechanical failure, the only remaining possibility is deliberate action. And if it was mechanical failure, we’d see an emergency air worthiness directive being issued, which we haven’t.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - School-Cotton 1y ago
      People do things bizarre, inexplicable things all the time. It's called a brain fart... the human brain is complicated, sometimes wires just get crossed. Honestly I think the chances are good that you're right, but the way you're presenting it as absolutely certain strikes me as overconfident, borderline arrogant. Also, what's with the whole "staking your reputation" thing? What reputation? Are you some kind of famous journalist? Is there some reason we should care about you "covering live news" ? Serious questions -- I personally have no idea who you are.
      - rogerrogerr 1y ago
        > I personally have no idea who you are I also don't recognize this guy's name, but I do find it ironic that his profile is possibly the most well-linked to a other identities I've ever seen on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sillysaurusx https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sillysaurusx
      - sillysaurusx 1y ago
        Well, you do now. :) It’s mostly a very public "If I’m wrong, I won’t ever do this again." I’ve been writing informative HN comments since 2008 on various accounts. It’s a big deal to me not to spread misinformation or be mistaken in a situation like this. The victims also deserve to be acknowledged. At this point the overwhelming body of evidence points to a deliberate act. Pilots are trained never to touch the fuel switches in flight, and (I believe) there is a verbal confirmation required before toggling. This captain had over 8,000 hours. The reason I’m so confident is because I trust the system. It’s designed so that if either of the two pilots do anything, they verbally call it out, e.g. "gear up." A callout like that followed by fuel switch cutoff would indicate it was accidental. But as far as I know, there was no callout. The pilot flying is also the one who asks for gear up and such. It’s the job do the pilot monitoring to perform those actions. Suppose it was accidental. That would mean the pilot flying was fiddling with switches instead of flying; that’s against SOP. Or it would mean the pilot monitoring was performing uncommanded actions, which is also against SOP. It’s not something that happens on a whim. Both are contradictions, hence, no accident. As for being overconfident or arrogant, what matters to me is accuracy, and passing along that accuracy. No one seemed to be willing to publicly call this a malicious action, so I did. If I’m wrong, you can be sure I’ll feel terrible for weeks, post an apology in the thread that shows I was wrong, and then bow out in disgrace, never to cover news again. People here did the same thing when the common belief was that there was a non-zero chance of nuclear war. I was one of the few voices in that thread saying absolutely not, stop stressing yourself out for no reason. I’m simply one voice of many. As always, it’s up to the reader to decide what to believe.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    The CVR might be pretty illuminating.
killingtime74 1y ago
I mean lots of people in prison say they are innocent
kraigspear 1y ago
The switches require that you pull them out, move them to the end position and then push them back down, and it was two switches. It could have still took off on one engine. This is essentially the turn off plane switch. It would seem to almost impossible that it would be an accident.
- schiffern 1y ago
  Not possible it's an "I bumped it" type of accident, maybe. It's quite possible it's a "performed the wrong muscle memory at the worst possible moment" type of accident. This is unlikely, but anyone who thinks such a mistake is impossible doesn't know anything about human factors. Unlikely just means "low probability." There are thousands of flights per day, so it's only a matter of time.

sillysaurusx 1y ago

I am, and I’m willing to stake my reputation on it. If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. Pilots are drilled from day one that the fuel switches are sacred. After a few accidents where one engine failed and the pilot accidentally turned off the remaining functional engine, the training was overhauled so that it would be impossible for it to be an easy action done by mistake. One pilot is required to ask the other for confirmation before toggling the switch, I believe. It wouldn’t be something you’d do from muscle memory.

janice1999 1y ago
> If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. It easy to say that when you know there's likely no way to prove or disprove whether it as an accident or not. Unless a pilot left a note stating his future intentions, there's no way to determine their state of mind.
- sillysaurusx 1y ago
  Someone took their hand, pulled one spring-loaded switch into the off position, and then did it the other switch moments later. Is there any way that could be accidental? If there was no mechanical failure, the only remaining possibility is deliberate action. And if it was mechanical failure, we’d see an emergency air worthiness directive being issued, which we haven’t.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    People do things bizarre, inexplicable things all the time. It's called a brain fart... the human brain is complicated, sometimes wires just get crossed. Honestly I think the chances are good that you're right, but the way you're presenting it as absolutely certain strikes me as overconfident, borderline arrogant. Also, what's with the whole "staking your reputation" thing? What reputation? Are you some kind of famous journalist? Is there some reason we should care about you "covering live news" ? Serious questions -- I personally have no idea who you are.
    - rogerrogerr 1y ago
      > I personally have no idea who you are I also don't recognize this guy's name, but I do find it ironic that his profile is possibly the most well-linked to a other identities I've ever seen on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sillysaurusx https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sillysaurusx
    - sillysaurusx 1y ago
      Well, you do now. :) It’s mostly a very public "If I’m wrong, I won’t ever do this again." I’ve been writing informative HN comments since 2008 on various accounts. It’s a big deal to me not to spread misinformation or be mistaken in a situation like this. The victims also deserve to be acknowledged. At this point the overwhelming body of evidence points to a deliberate act. Pilots are trained never to touch the fuel switches in flight, and (I believe) there is a verbal confirmation required before toggling. This captain had over 8,000 hours. The reason I’m so confident is because I trust the system. It’s designed so that if either of the two pilots do anything, they verbally call it out, e.g. "gear up." A callout like that followed by fuel switch cutoff would indicate it was accidental. But as far as I know, there was no callout. The pilot flying is also the one who asks for gear up and such. It’s the job do the pilot monitoring to perform those actions. Suppose it was accidental. That would mean the pilot flying was fiddling with switches instead of flying; that’s against SOP. Or it would mean the pilot monitoring was performing uncommanded actions, which is also against SOP. It’s not something that happens on a whim. Both are contradictions, hence, no accident. As for being overconfident or arrogant, what matters to me is accuracy, and passing along that accuracy. No one seemed to be willing to publicly call this a malicious action, so I did. If I’m wrong, you can be sure I’ll feel terrible for weeks, post an apology in the thread that shows I was wrong, and then bow out in disgrace, never to cover news again. People here did the same thing when the common belief was that there was a non-zero chance of nuclear war. I was one of the few voices in that thread saying absolutely not, stop stressing yourself out for no reason. I’m simply one voice of many. As always, it’s up to the reader to decide what to believe.
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  The CVR might be pretty illuminating.

killingtime74 1y ago

I mean lots of people in prison say they are innocent

kraigspear 1y ago

The switches require that you pull them out, move them to the end position and then push them back down, and it was two switches. It could have still took off on one engine. This is essentially the turn off plane switch. It would seem to almost impossible that it would be an accident.

schiffern 1y ago
Not possible it's an "I bumped it" type of accident, maybe. It's quite possible it's a "performed the wrong muscle memory at the worst possible moment" type of accident. This is unlikely, but anyone who thinks such a mistake is impossible doesn't know anything about human factors. Unlikely just means "low probability." There are thousands of flights per day, so it's only a matter of time.