4 ms·

> Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.

bigstrat2003 1y ago
Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.
- IOT_Apprentice 1y ago
  Do you think Stephen Miller is a classist rather than a bigot? Why not both? I mean he is only worth somewhere between 1-10 million. Shrug. I think Vivek Ramaswamy found out how that worked out for himself in politics and at DOGE as a billionaire. I suspect your view of very, very few is suspect. The founding ideas of MAGA certainly cling to it. The 60-70 million voters for it have zero issues with it.
  - Sammi 1y ago
    He said "most" , not "all".
- lucyjojo 1y ago
  as a black man that has been around. i seriously doubt that.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Since you brought it up, this political-leaning topic is fair game. > Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. This is bald-faced racism denialism and makes a sweeping generalization. For example, the Trump administration is going after immigrants not for economic or class reasons but as a dogwhistle for their Floridian golf club members who don't like minorities of any sort and to appease a large section of the base of covert and overt racists generally. There is no logic in exiling and disappearing the low cost labor needed to product food, build homes, and do the terrible jobs that make civilization possible.. because it is mission of dumb people sabotaging themselves and others. The selective protection plus oppression and criminalization of undocumented people is grounded in the need to control a desperate, underpaid population to keep prices of agriculture, home construction, and restaurant prices lower than paying ordinary, livable wages to them. > Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. You can't know this. And, it's leans towards false because of how propinquity works.
  - amy214 1y ago
    >ut as a dogwhistle for their Floridian golf club members who don't like minorities of any sort and to appease a large section of the base of covert and overt racists generally. I mean, here's how I see it, if 100 million Polish people, a very white peoples, suddenly claimed asylum in the US, had 300 million anchor babies to exploit that loophole, used the anchor baby army to claim massive funds of welfare in aggregate, all the while claiming zero income while working under the table and undercutting the common man ... ... and also driving drunk and refusing to learn any English and demanding Americans ought to learn Polish If the Polish people did that I'd have it in to deport them all. And it wouldn't be about race at all, it would be the overwhelming unfair advantages and systematic exploits the Polish performed in this case. The racist narrative is just another manifestation of "playing the race card" to defend indefensible, selfish, toxic behavior
    - const_cast 1y ago
      Yes, if this other thing happened which didn't really happen then things would be different. How enlightening, did you come up with this yourself?
    - roughly 1y ago
      Not so much a dog whistle as a dog symphony orchestra at this point
    - Clamchop 1y ago
      Good thing this scenario is entirely fictional. Even if it weren't completely made up, though, you'd still be ethically obligated to assess immigrants as individuals and not simply guilty by association, except perhaps under the most dire wartime circumstances. You'd also be legally obligated, but to be lawful is not always the same thing as being ethical nor moral. It would be challenging, I admit, considering the country will have doubled in size with half of them being infants that naturally don't speak English, or any language for that matter. We really should close that loophole, though. And it definitely is a loophole and not the explicit intention of a constitutional amendment. An oversight to be sure.
Henchman21 1y ago
There’s class contempt too, no one wants to be one of the poors.
- jeremyjh 1y ago
  There isn't as much contempt for the rich as there should be. The poor despise themselves for being poor, instead of the rich for making them that way.
  - Henchman21 1y ago
    Funny what happens to the poor when the rich control what they think, eh?
- labster 1y ago
  Wealth is not the same as class, either. Even in America. A teacher with an annual salary of $60k is higher class than a plumber making $100k annually. Unless the teacher is black, of course, then racial elements of class come into play.
  - keyserj 1y ago
    I agree that wealth is not the same as class, but just as a counter anecdote, my dad is a (small business) plumber and I never felt like we were treated less than any other middle class family. If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events.
    - Jensson 1y ago
      > If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events. If they didn't do that to other middle class families then they saw you as less than them. Seeing people as less comes both with charity and contempt, not just one of those.
    - labster 1y ago
b00ty4breakfast 1y ago
there's still regular ol classism, too, racism is just part of the calculus. Poor white folks don't have it good, they just have it less bad than poor not-white folks
- Ratelman 1y ago
  In America maybe, in south africa it's quite the opposite considering the government provides a lot more support for poor non-white folks than for white folks (specifically based om race)
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Yes, a bastion of pro-black racism, post-apartheid South Africa. All those white folks fleeing the country looking like the fucking Monopoly Man with their bags of money were doing it because of... anti-white racism.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Some bits here and there. That faded as the US became a super power, and came back a bit as the 80's started stripping down the middle class thst was growing. Of course, but the 2010's it was decided by the powers that he to re-introduce identity politics as the new form of class warfare. Which was 80% sexism/racism and 20% classisn.
munificent 1y ago
Porque no los dos?

bigstrat2003 1y ago

Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.

IOT_Apprentice 1y ago
Do you think Stephen Miller is a classist rather than a bigot? Why not both? I mean he is only worth somewhere between 1-10 million. Shrug. I think Vivek Ramaswamy found out how that worked out for himself in politics and at DOGE as a billionaire. I suspect your view of very, very few is suspect. The founding ideas of MAGA certainly cling to it. The 60-70 million voters for it have zero issues with it.
- Sammi 1y ago
  He said "most" , not "all".
lucyjojo 1y ago
as a black man that has been around. i seriously doubt that.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Since you brought it up, this political-leaning topic is fair game. > Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. This is bald-faced racism denialism and makes a sweeping generalization. For example, the Trump administration is going after immigrants not for economic or class reasons but as a dogwhistle for their Floridian golf club members who don't like minorities of any sort and to appease a large section of the base of covert and overt racists generally. There is no logic in exiling and disappearing the low cost labor needed to product food, build homes, and do the terrible jobs that make civilization possible.. because it is mission of dumb people sabotaging themselves and others. The selective protection plus oppression and criminalization of undocumented people is grounded in the need to control a desperate, underpaid population to keep prices of agriculture, home construction, and restaurant prices lower than paying ordinary, livable wages to them. > Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. You can't know this. And, it's leans towards false because of how propinquity works.
- amy214 1y ago
  >ut as a dogwhistle for their Floridian golf club members who don't like minorities of any sort and to appease a large section of the base of covert and overt racists generally. I mean, here's how I see it, if 100 million Polish people, a very white peoples, suddenly claimed asylum in the US, had 300 million anchor babies to exploit that loophole, used the anchor baby army to claim massive funds of welfare in aggregate, all the while claiming zero income while working under the table and undercutting the common man ... ... and also driving drunk and refusing to learn any English and demanding Americans ought to learn Polish If the Polish people did that I'd have it in to deport them all. And it wouldn't be about race at all, it would be the overwhelming unfair advantages and systematic exploits the Polish performed in this case. The racist narrative is just another manifestation of "playing the race card" to defend indefensible, selfish, toxic behavior
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Yes, if this other thing happened which didn't really happen then things would be different. How enlightening, did you come up with this yourself?
  - roughly 1y ago
    Not so much a dog whistle as a dog symphony orchestra at this point
  - Clamchop 1y ago
    Good thing this scenario is entirely fictional. Even if it weren't completely made up, though, you'd still be ethically obligated to assess immigrants as individuals and not simply guilty by association, except perhaps under the most dire wartime circumstances. You'd also be legally obligated, but to be lawful is not always the same thing as being ethical nor moral. It would be challenging, I admit, considering the country will have doubled in size with half of them being infants that naturally don't speak English, or any language for that matter. We really should close that loophole, though. And it definitely is a loophole and not the explicit intention of a constitutional amendment. An oversight to be sure.

Henchman21 1y ago

There’s class contempt too, no one wants to be one of the poors.

jeremyjh 1y ago
There isn't as much contempt for the rich as there should be. The poor despise themselves for being poor, instead of the rich for making them that way.
- Henchman21 1y ago
  Funny what happens to the poor when the rich control what they think, eh?
labster 1y ago
Wealth is not the same as class, either. Even in America. A teacher with an annual salary of $60k is higher class than a plumber making $100k annually. Unless the teacher is black, of course, then racial elements of class come into play.
- keyserj 1y ago
  I agree that wealth is not the same as class, but just as a counter anecdote, my dad is a (small business) plumber and I never felt like we were treated less than any other middle class family. If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events.
  - Jensson 1y ago
    > If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events. If they didn't do that to other middle class families then they saw you as less than them. Seeing people as less comes both with charity and contempt, not just one of those.
  - labster 1y ago

b00ty4breakfast 1y ago

there's still regular ol classism, too, racism is just part of the calculus. Poor white folks don't have it good, they just have it less bad than poor not-white folks

Ratelman 1y ago
In America maybe, in south africa it's quite the opposite considering the government provides a lot more support for poor non-white folks than for white folks (specifically based om race)
- const_cast 1y ago
  Yes, a bastion of pro-black racism, post-apartheid South Africa. All those white folks fleeing the country looking like the fucking Monopoly Man with their bags of money were doing it because of... anti-white racism.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
Some bits here and there. That faded as the US became a super power, and came back a bit as the 80's started stripping down the middle class thst was growing. Of course, but the 2010's it was decided by the powers that he to re-introduce identity politics as the new form of class warfare. Which was 80% sexism/racism and 20% classisn.

munificent 1y ago

Porque no los dos?