4 ms·

It's Time to Let Go of 'African American'

24 points by leephillips 1y ago

aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
Avshalom 1y ago
NYT trying desperately to justify using hacked material (against their own stated policies) and giving a nazi psuedonymity (against policy) to try and gin up a scandal about a popular candidate.
- femiagbabiaka 1y ago
  I agree that the phenomenon you’re speaking of is happening, but this column argues that Zohran did nothing wrong. Of course it does so along racial sectarian lines (African-American is exactly as meaningful as White American) but nonetheless.
- inerte 1y ago
  I am not up to date to your first 2 statements, but my impression after reading the article is that it’s saying it was alright for Mamdani to say he’s African American.
- cholantesh 1y ago
  I mean they published Bari Weiss for a long time.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Well, they also railroaded Chris Hedges for not beating the drums to war based on fictional evidence.
ramesh31 1y ago
I think it serves a purpose, if even not for its original intended usage. African American culture is a very real thing, distinct from just "black". No one migrating from Africa would identify with the term; they have their own individual ethnic/national identity to draw on. It's a term that now encompasses the lived experiences of the native born black descendants of American slaves, whose history was erased and have lost all connection to any specific African identity. It's unique from any other kind of blackness, for which there is no other term.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  [dead]
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  THIS is the real point. If you dissect the term, it falls apart, but as a unit it is (perhaps) the only term that describes the population. A word can have two components separated by a space. A camel spider is neither a spider nor a camel. Combined, those two words create a new word with its own particular meaning that is useful. Much of that community uses "black" to refer to their culture; it seems to me to be more popular by far than AA. But if one doesn't have the freedom to even name one's people ("You folk are "Indians". Now gather up yer things; we're walking you down to Florida.")... Radical proposal: If a person or group of people you call "X" say they prefer to be called "Y", why is your opinion even relevant?
RamblingCTO 1y ago
As a European I never understood this American way of labeling yourself after your supposed heritage. Nothing italian about "italian americans" and nothing african about "african american". Sure, there are maybe traces of the original culture in the respective subculture and we like to mingle with people who are like us. And for that labels like these help. But this heritage is so far gone that it really doesn't matter anymore. I also understand that it describes a new culture, but by using the "old" names it puts a claim on something it just can't. I also don't get this: “Whenever I go to Africa, I feel like a person with a legitimate place to stand on this earth. This is the name for all the feelings I’ve had all these years.” And the "return to africa" thingy (or the new return to europe thingy). Africa is a big ass continent and there is really no cultural homogeneity. They never ever stepped foot on african, italian or german soil before. You're all american, period. This feels like self-segregating. A culture isn't something you can just consume or put on yourself. PS: I'm very understanding of the issue that you want to cling to some roots. But I don't like that it's becoming a "I vs them" thing and that it gets consumed and is used for projection.
- mvieira38 1y ago
  The Sopranos has an episode more or less about this, Commendatori. It's basically the glorified crew visiting their "home" in Italy and being your run-of-the-mill american tourists. Some interesting stuff is Paulie asking for pasta and red sauce because he doesn't like the fancy seafood he's been served, and Tony complaining about "lots of fish" to Carm over the phone. When they get home they immediately resume their LARP and say they felt "right at home" lmao
  - Reubachi 1y ago
    The sopranos is a fictional dramatized soap opera though, made for a primarily American audience who are already vaguely aware of the "clash" between Italian Americans and Italians. My "greek" side of my (american) family goes to Greece 2x a year for weeks, speaks greek at home, primarily eat a mediteranean diet etc. When I think of them, I think of "my greek family", and it certainly isn't some vanity thing.
hollywood_court 1y ago
The term 'African American' was rarely used until Jesse Jackson started popularizing it. The most formative years of my life were spent in the Caribbean. I was essentially raised and mentored by two different black men (I'm white trailer park trash originally from Alabama). And both of those men both took great offense to being called African American. The same went for many of the people I knew down there. However, I've rarely heard actual mainlanders take offense to the term. I've always thought that a person born in the US was simply an American. Not an Irish American or an African American or Scottish American, etc. If you're born in the US, you're simply an American. I've never understood the desire to want to differentiate one's self like that. Perhaps I feel that way because my own father left when I was a toddler and I never had any kind of strong family connection or culture taught to me by anyone else in my family. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a strong family unit that shared a common culture or something like that. But I still think terms like that are divisive.
- rexpop 1y ago
  The term is divisive? But, when you notice a systematic discrimination against Americans with dark skin, how do you talk about it?
  - hollywood_court 1y ago
    I know you're looking for an argument here. But I talk about it the same way any reasonably educated person talks about it. I know racism and discrimination are alive and well here in the US and elsewhere. I have witnessed it myself many times. My mother was a career long LEO in the south. While I was growing up, I heard her and her fellow LEOs discussing how they would treat black people differently numerous times. The first time I flew home to the states after six years, I brought my black girlfriend with me. Together, she and I saw/heard things that I still think about to this day. I wore a tool belt and was a blue collar guy for the first ~20 years of my career. I heard racist stuff and saw discrimination pretty much every day of my career. I'm not sure what part of my original comment would make you feel like making your comment, but I'm sorry I couldn't offend you further.
gumboshoes 1y ago
[flagged]
- tw_wankette 1y ago
  Prescribing what (to you) is acceptable behaviour to a free person is wrong.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
George Carlin did a whole set on the futile bullshit of euphemisms. More often than not, they are used either to sound trendy, cool, intelligent, sensitive, or virtuous through the very large accomplishment of using different words. Also, what about the black people who don't have an opinion of or attachment with Africa? This treats a group as unified hivemind bloc and assigns a label on them without asking for their individual consent.
- pseudalopex 1y ago
  George Carlin's routine about euphemisms ignored people got PTSD outside combat. The term changed because the understanding changed. > This treats a group as unified hivemind bloc and assigns a label on them without asking for their individual consent. No more than saying black people.

24 points by leephillips 1y ago

[dead]

NYT trying desperately to justify using hacked material (against their own stated policies) and giving a nazi psuedonymity (against policy) to try and gin up a scandal about a popular candidate.

femiagbabiaka 1y ago
I agree that the phenomenon you’re speaking of is happening, but this column argues that Zohran did nothing wrong. Of course it does so along racial sectarian lines (African-American is exactly as meaningful as White American) but nonetheless.
inerte 1y ago
I am not up to date to your first 2 statements, but my impression after reading the article is that it’s saying it was alright for Mamdani to say he’s African American.
cholantesh 1y ago
I mean they published Bari Weiss for a long time.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Well, they also railroaded Chris Hedges for not beating the drums to war based on fictional evidence.

ramesh31 1y ago

I think it serves a purpose, if even not for its original intended usage. African American culture is a very real thing, distinct from just "black". No one migrating from Africa would identify with the term; they have their own individual ethnic/national identity to draw on. It's a term that now encompasses the lived experiences of the native born black descendants of American slaves, whose history was erased and have lost all connection to any specific African identity. It's unique from any other kind of blackness, for which there is no other term.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
[dead]
IAmBroom 1y ago
THIS is the real point. If you dissect the term, it falls apart, but as a unit it is (perhaps) the only term that describes the population. A word can have two components separated by a space. A camel spider is neither a spider nor a camel. Combined, those two words create a new word with its own particular meaning that is useful. Much of that community uses "black" to refer to their culture; it seems to me to be more popular by far than AA. But if one doesn't have the freedom to even name one's people ("You folk are "Indians". Now gather up yer things; we're walking you down to Florida.")... Radical proposal: If a person or group of people you call "X" say they prefer to be called "Y", why is your opinion even relevant?

RamblingCTO 1y ago

As a European I never understood this American way of labeling yourself after your supposed heritage. Nothing italian about "italian americans" and nothing african about "african american". Sure, there are maybe traces of the original culture in the respective subculture and we like to mingle with people who are like us. And for that labels like these help. But this heritage is so far gone that it really doesn't matter anymore. I also understand that it describes a new culture, but by using the "old" names it puts a claim on something it just can't. I also don't get this: “Whenever I go to Africa, I feel like a person with a legitimate place to stand on this earth. This is the name for all the feelings I’ve had all these years.” And the "return to africa" thingy (or the new return to europe thingy). Africa is a big ass continent and there is really no cultural homogeneity. They never ever stepped foot on african, italian or german soil before. You're all american, period. This feels like self-segregating. A culture isn't something you can just consume or put on yourself. PS: I'm very understanding of the issue that you want to cling to some roots. But I don't like that it's becoming a "I vs them" thing and that it gets consumed and is used for projection.

mvieira38 1y ago
The Sopranos has an episode more or less about this, Commendatori. It's basically the glorified crew visiting their "home" in Italy and being your run-of-the-mill american tourists. Some interesting stuff is Paulie asking for pasta and red sauce because he doesn't like the fancy seafood he's been served, and Tony complaining about "lots of fish" to Carm over the phone. When they get home they immediately resume their LARP and say they felt "right at home" lmao
- Reubachi 1y ago
  The sopranos is a fictional dramatized soap opera though, made for a primarily American audience who are already vaguely aware of the "clash" between Italian Americans and Italians. My "greek" side of my (american) family goes to Greece 2x a year for weeks, speaks greek at home, primarily eat a mediteranean diet etc. When I think of them, I think of "my greek family", and it certainly isn't some vanity thing.

hollywood_court 1y ago

The term 'African American' was rarely used until Jesse Jackson started popularizing it. The most formative years of my life were spent in the Caribbean. I was essentially raised and mentored by two different black men (I'm white trailer park trash originally from Alabama). And both of those men both took great offense to being called African American. The same went for many of the people I knew down there. However, I've rarely heard actual mainlanders take offense to the term. I've always thought that a person born in the US was simply an American. Not an Irish American or an African American or Scottish American, etc. If you're born in the US, you're simply an American. I've never understood the desire to want to differentiate one's self like that. Perhaps I feel that way because my own father left when I was a toddler and I never had any kind of strong family connection or culture taught to me by anyone else in my family. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a strong family unit that shared a common culture or something like that. But I still think terms like that are divisive.

rexpop 1y ago
The term is divisive? But, when you notice a systematic discrimination against Americans with dark skin, how do you talk about it?
- hollywood_court 1y ago
  I know you're looking for an argument here. But I talk about it the same way any reasonably educated person talks about it. I know racism and discrimination are alive and well here in the US and elsewhere. I have witnessed it myself many times. My mother was a career long LEO in the south. While I was growing up, I heard her and her fellow LEOs discussing how they would treat black people differently numerous times. The first time I flew home to the states after six years, I brought my black girlfriend with me. Together, she and I saw/heard things that I still think about to this day. I wore a tool belt and was a blue collar guy for the first ~20 years of my career. I heard racist stuff and saw discrimination pretty much every day of my career. I'm not sure what part of my original comment would make you feel like making your comment, but I'm sorry I couldn't offend you further.

gumboshoes 1y ago

[flagged]

tw_wankette 1y ago
Prescribing what (to you) is acceptable behaviour to a free person is wrong.

burnt-resistor 1y ago

George Carlin did a whole set on the futile bullshit of euphemisms. More often than not, they are used either to sound trendy, cool, intelligent, sensitive, or virtuous through the very large accomplishment of using different words. Also, what about the black people who don't have an opinion of or attachment with Africa? This treats a group as unified hivemind bloc and assigns a label on them without asking for their individual consent.

pseudalopex 1y ago
George Carlin's routine about euphemisms ignored people got PTSD outside combat. The term changed because the understanding changed. > This treats a group as unified hivemind bloc and assigns a label on them without asking for their individual consent. No more than saying black people.