4 ms·

Gabor Maté - a physician who worked with people with serious substance abuse disorders for many years - talks about how addiction is usually a symptom of some o

by n4r9 1y ago

Gabor Maté - a physician who worked with people with serious substance abuse disorders for many years - talks about how addiction is usually a symptom of some other underlying suffering; often trauma. The addictive behaviours act as a way to avoid confronting that pain.

VladVladikoff 1y ago
I’ve heard this take a lot in my life. And I definitely struggle with substance abuse addiction. However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Perhaps the only way to discover this is through some very expensive therapy sessions, or maybe vaping some 5-Meo-DMT.
- lompad 1y ago
  Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic. If you search really really deeply, you're going to find it, wether it exists or not. Generally: While suppressed memory of trauma exists, the vast majority of people are aware of trauma and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. And there is clear evidence that lots of mentally well people get addicted as well, so just claiming "it's always some underlying condition" is probably not a great idea. It can, often even, be, sure. But that doesn't make it mandatory and especially doesn't allow the "I struggle with addiction, so there _must_ have been a problem beforehand" conclusion. So honestly, I'd just not search any deeper to not risk inducing any false memories.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    The idea of repressed memories is very popular with untrained general public, but it’s not a substantiated research topic. Like the comment above said, many “repressed memories” are actually false memories or, in rare cases, false stories that get constructed and encouraged by a misleading therapist who is convinced that some repressed memory exists and pushes too hard to get the patient to “remember” something. When the only way to satisfy the other party is to come up with a story, many people will eventually come up with a story and even believe it themselves. The same thing happens with false confessions.
  - shkkmo 1y ago
    > Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic It is problematic, but not in the way that you think. While memories can be suggestively altered or created by questioning, the evidence for doing so for traumatic childhood sexual abuse is anecdotal and those anecdotes were pretty heavily cherry picked by the clearly biased FMSF, which was run as a support and advocacy group for parents accused of abuse. That said, my understanding is that in general, dwelling on traumatizing experiences isn't beneficial to recovery. There are times they may need to be confronted and processed, but generally if it isn't causing a problem, don't go digging it up and spending a lot of time thinking about it unnecessarily.
- jxjnskkzxxhx 1y ago
  Exactly. This reeks of snake oil. I'm addicted to sugar. I have some trauma now? What trauma? My life has been relatively smooth sailing. You're right, this is just a way of creating the "need" for "therapy".
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    The therapy industrial complex at it again /s
    - bregma 1y ago
      It's all because of Big Help.
    - Aurornis 1y ago
      You joke, but trauma influencers are a big deal. That’s how they get their followers and their podcast appearances.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        Alex Jones, is that you? That's a very poignant insight from you that I'm surprised you're willing to admit. /s
  - dylan604 1y ago
    Man, you're being disingenuous as can be. Not all addiction is the same, and some are much easier to break than others. However, sugar addiction can lead to some very traumatic experiences at the dentist.
    - jxjnskkzxxhx 1y ago
      Why are you minimizing my addiction.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  I’ve tried counselling multiple times and I never got that eye opening clarity of what’s wrong with me. Maybe one has to do psychotherapy for that, which is unavailable to most.
  - mattgreenrocks 1y ago
    IME, there's usually not a moment of absolute clarity where I know what's wrong with me. Instead it's a lot of wandering, digging, and, very occasionally, finding little nuggets of info and wondering, "what the hell do I do with this knowledge?" Gradually, what happens is the process of doing this helps you understand yourself, which, over time, can change perceptions and actions. The clarity usually comes in retrospect for me.
- gh0stcat 1y ago
  For me it’s not necessarily trauma or suffering, not beyond the normal expected human “suffering” of doing boring, mundane tasks or feeling sad/frustrated/insecure, but rather feeling these generally uncomfortable feelings and having a habit of detaching from them and developing a low tolerance for handling it in general. I generally engage more in my own flavor of addictions (caffeine, social media, workaholism) when I am more overwhelmed, understanding that I do this and why… was helpful.
- lelanthran 1y ago
  > However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Don't worry about it. The trauma diagnosis has been ludicrously poor at treating addiction. From what I've read, it performs worse than placebos, random chance, etc. For treatment of substance abuse, therapy is literally at the bottom of the performance chart, below things like hypnotism, alternative medicines and plain old prayer.
everdrive 1y ago
Trauma is far too vague and far too appealing to be as useful as people believe. Everyone thinks they have some sort of trauma, and that everything can be boiled down to trauma. Some people are more inclined to addiction and this is not necessarily related to trauma.
- sharifhsn 1y ago
  Yes, but trauma is a useful framework to help an individual recover from addiction. While some individuals will struggle more than others, everyone has a path to avoiding addiction, and one of the best ways to do this is to build an environment for people that compensates for trauma. It’s much easier to confront things that were done to you, than to mistakes that you yourself committed.
  - vintermann 1y ago
    I don't think it's a good framework, because trauma is about the past. Whereas for addiction or other avoidant or self-destructive behavior, the tigers are often still around.
  - butlike 1y ago
    But what if the addiction isn't rooted in trauma? My mom smoked a few cigs when she was pregnant, which probably caused some mild ADHD symptoms, so when high school rolled around and I began experimenting with drugs to quell those symptoms, the ADHD medication felt best. If that medication felt good, I wondered what the others would feel like, so it started me down the path of addictive behavior during my formative years. Where is the trauma in that scenario? The brain damage from the cigs? I can hardly get over that 'trauma' since I've never known a world without it. The trauma of repeatedly getting addicted to things? I DON'T hold that against myself, I just like how they feel. Where is the trauma in that scenario?
  - some_random 1y ago
    This tends to be a really frustrating conversation because it's different for different people. Some find the trauma framework as useful in recovering, other find it useful because it allows them to blame other people and sink deeper into addiction. Others yet find that it doesn't really apply to them.
rwyinuse 1y ago
That may apply to things like serious substance abuse, but what about things like smartphone, social media addiction? I seriously doubt everyone glued to their phone has a trauma. Some things are simply engineered to be addictive. I guess one could argue that modern life in industrialized world is deeply understimulating, and the phones just provide an escape from that, but that's just living conditions, not a trauma.
- keiferski 1y ago
  I think the reality is that no matter how manipulative these devices are, they really aren’t comparable to addictions in the sense of drug or alcohol addiction. They are essentially just learned behaviors which are reinforced constantly by peers and society.
- vintermann 1y ago
  Yes, I think "trauma" is a little too specific and gives the wrong associations. The point is, there was something about our situation that made it appealing to escape into the "addiction" for a moment. And depending on what the "addiction" is, it could more or less self-reinforcing.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    You're right. For substance additions the cause could be something like a toxic relationship or job stress. As soon as I put my smartphone away I realise I'm confronted with challenging feelings: the fear of engaging with the people around me, worrying what they're thinking, looking stupid if I'm not doing anything, or just plain boredom. So it's "avoiding psychological difficulty" that is the fundamental factor.
- hollerith 1y ago
  I was addicted for years (to the flow state, to which by the way I've never seen or heard a report of anyone else's being addicted). I also wasted too much time, thousands of hours, reading and writing on the newsgroups and on the web. There are similarities between these 2 things. For example, both reduce the amount of motivation and drive available in a life. But they feel very different, and in my experience, avoiding the former is extremely important whereas avoiding the latter is merely one more important thing in a life full of important considerations. In an ideal world, there would be a word or short phrase for the second thing so that "addiction" could be reserved for the first thing. "Insufficient vigilance against superstimuli" is the shortest phrase I can think of right now. (I'm sad that I cannot use the word "vices" without provoking an immediate negative reaction: "vices" is shorter than "superstimuli".)
jamal-kumar 1y ago
I distinctly remember english speakers being less annoying before this guy filled everyone full of relating absolutely everything to trauma. It just seems like a massively reductionist point of view in a world of people more complex than that
- Synaesthesia 1y ago
  My initial.reactiom to his book on ADHD was similar, I couldn't believe that it could all be reduced to trauma. I've really come around to that theory though and I think he's very wise. We need to take a close look at the way we are living our lives under capitalism, the decisions we're forced to.make, and the way we treat our children.
Aurornis 1y ago
Gabor Maté is popular, but he’s an example of an influencer who has one tool (trauma treatment) and applies it to everything. His approach is extremely reductive. Many people get addicted to drugs simply because they like taking the drugs and have poor self control, not because they’re avoiding trauma. It’s another example of something that isn’t really correct for everyone but can be useful to get people to go to a therapist and get treatment.
- nomadpenguin 1y ago
  He also believes that he can remember full memories from when he was 3 months old. There is no evidence that this is possible.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    Do you have a reference for that?
spjt 1y ago
As someone with an incredibly "addictive personality", I've always seen it much more simply. I become addicted to things when there's nothing else I'd rather be doing that is incompatible with the addictive behavior. Like if I'm sitting on the couch scrolling on my phone, if there was something else I'd rather do (not something that I'd "ought to" rather be doing but don't actually want to) then I would be doing that instead.
- n4r9 1y ago
  When I sit and observe my thoughts and feelings I find a complex mix of desires. Some that are immediate/basic/short-term vs some that are conceptual/nuanced/long-term. The eventual course of action is a delicate compromise. A lot of the time I'd rather just veg out than - say - go for a run or do some writing. But I might do the latter anyway because I recognise that it'll usually help me feel much better in 2 hours time. I guess the upshot is that "I'd rather be doing..." is not actually very simple at all IMO.

by n4r9 1y ago

VladVladikoff 1y ago

I’ve heard this take a lot in my life. And I definitely struggle with substance abuse addiction. However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Perhaps the only way to discover this is through some very expensive therapy sessions, or maybe vaping some 5-Meo-DMT.

lompad 1y ago
Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic. If you search really really deeply, you're going to find it, wether it exists or not. Generally: While suppressed memory of trauma exists, the vast majority of people are aware of trauma and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. And there is clear evidence that lots of mentally well people get addicted as well, so just claiming "it's always some underlying condition" is probably not a great idea. It can, often even, be, sure. But that doesn't make it mandatory and especially doesn't allow the "I struggle with addiction, so there _must_ have been a problem beforehand" conclusion. So honestly, I'd just not search any deeper to not risk inducing any false memories.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  The idea of repressed memories is very popular with untrained general public, but it’s not a substantiated research topic. Like the comment above said, many “repressed memories” are actually false memories or, in rare cases, false stories that get constructed and encouraged by a misleading therapist who is convinced that some repressed memory exists and pushes too hard to get the patient to “remember” something. When the only way to satisfy the other party is to come up with a story, many people will eventually come up with a story and even believe it themselves. The same thing happens with false confessions.
- shkkmo 1y ago
  > Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic It is problematic, but not in the way that you think. While memories can be suggestively altered or created by questioning, the evidence for doing so for traumatic childhood sexual abuse is anecdotal and those anecdotes were pretty heavily cherry picked by the clearly biased FMSF, which was run as a support and advocacy group for parents accused of abuse. That said, my understanding is that in general, dwelling on traumatizing experiences isn't beneficial to recovery. There are times they may need to be confronted and processed, but generally if it isn't causing a problem, don't go digging it up and spending a lot of time thinking about it unnecessarily.
jxjnskkzxxhx 1y ago
Exactly. This reeks of snake oil. I'm addicted to sugar. I have some trauma now? What trauma? My life has been relatively smooth sailing. You're right, this is just a way of creating the "need" for "therapy".
- barbazoo 1y ago
  The therapy industrial complex at it again /s
  - bregma 1y ago
    It's all because of Big Help.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    You joke, but trauma influencers are a big deal. That’s how they get their followers and their podcast appearances.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      Alex Jones, is that you? That's a very poignant insight from you that I'm surprised you're willing to admit. /s
- dylan604 1y ago
  Man, you're being disingenuous as can be. Not all addiction is the same, and some are much easier to break than others. However, sugar addiction can lead to some very traumatic experiences at the dentist.
  - jxjnskkzxxhx 1y ago
    Why are you minimizing my addiction.
barbazoo 1y ago
I’ve tried counselling multiple times and I never got that eye opening clarity of what’s wrong with me. Maybe one has to do psychotherapy for that, which is unavailable to most.
- mattgreenrocks 1y ago
  IME, there's usually not a moment of absolute clarity where I know what's wrong with me. Instead it's a lot of wandering, digging, and, very occasionally, finding little nuggets of info and wondering, "what the hell do I do with this knowledge?" Gradually, what happens is the process of doing this helps you understand yourself, which, over time, can change perceptions and actions. The clarity usually comes in retrospect for me.
gh0stcat 1y ago
For me it’s not necessarily trauma or suffering, not beyond the normal expected human “suffering” of doing boring, mundane tasks or feeling sad/frustrated/insecure, but rather feeling these generally uncomfortable feelings and having a habit of detaching from them and developing a low tolerance for handling it in general. I generally engage more in my own flavor of addictions (caffeine, social media, workaholism) when I am more overwhelmed, understanding that I do this and why… was helpful.
lelanthran 1y ago
> However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Don't worry about it. The trauma diagnosis has been ludicrously poor at treating addiction. From what I've read, it performs worse than placebos, random chance, etc. For treatment of substance abuse, therapy is literally at the bottom of the performance chart, below things like hypnotism, alternative medicines and plain old prayer.

everdrive 1y ago

Trauma is far too vague and far too appealing to be as useful as people believe. Everyone thinks they have some sort of trauma, and that everything can be boiled down to trauma. Some people are more inclined to addiction and this is not necessarily related to trauma.

sharifhsn 1y ago
Yes, but trauma is a useful framework to help an individual recover from addiction. While some individuals will struggle more than others, everyone has a path to avoiding addiction, and one of the best ways to do this is to build an environment for people that compensates for trauma. It’s much easier to confront things that were done to you, than to mistakes that you yourself committed.
- vintermann 1y ago
  I don't think it's a good framework, because trauma is about the past. Whereas for addiction or other avoidant or self-destructive behavior, the tigers are often still around.
- butlike 1y ago
  But what if the addiction isn't rooted in trauma? My mom smoked a few cigs when she was pregnant, which probably caused some mild ADHD symptoms, so when high school rolled around and I began experimenting with drugs to quell those symptoms, the ADHD medication felt best. If that medication felt good, I wondered what the others would feel like, so it started me down the path of addictive behavior during my formative years. Where is the trauma in that scenario? The brain damage from the cigs? I can hardly get over that 'trauma' since I've never known a world without it. The trauma of repeatedly getting addicted to things? I DON'T hold that against myself, I just like how they feel. Where is the trauma in that scenario?
- some_random 1y ago
  This tends to be a really frustrating conversation because it's different for different people. Some find the trauma framework as useful in recovering, other find it useful because it allows them to blame other people and sink deeper into addiction. Others yet find that it doesn't really apply to them.

rwyinuse 1y ago

That may apply to things like serious substance abuse, but what about things like smartphone, social media addiction? I seriously doubt everyone glued to their phone has a trauma. Some things are simply engineered to be addictive. I guess one could argue that modern life in industrialized world is deeply understimulating, and the phones just provide an escape from that, but that's just living conditions, not a trauma.

keiferski 1y ago
I think the reality is that no matter how manipulative these devices are, they really aren’t comparable to addictions in the sense of drug or alcohol addiction. They are essentially just learned behaviors which are reinforced constantly by peers and society.
vintermann 1y ago
Yes, I think "trauma" is a little too specific and gives the wrong associations. The point is, there was something about our situation that made it appealing to escape into the "addiction" for a moment. And depending on what the "addiction" is, it could more or less self-reinforcing.
- n4r9 1y ago
  You're right. For substance additions the cause could be something like a toxic relationship or job stress. As soon as I put my smartphone away I realise I'm confronted with challenging feelings: the fear of engaging with the people around me, worrying what they're thinking, looking stupid if I'm not doing anything, or just plain boredom. So it's "avoiding psychological difficulty" that is the fundamental factor.
hollerith 1y ago
I was addicted for years (to the flow state, to which by the way I've never seen or heard a report of anyone else's being addicted). I also wasted too much time, thousands of hours, reading and writing on the newsgroups and on the web. There are similarities between these 2 things. For example, both reduce the amount of motivation and drive available in a life. But they feel very different, and in my experience, avoiding the former is extremely important whereas avoiding the latter is merely one more important thing in a life full of important considerations. In an ideal world, there would be a word or short phrase for the second thing so that "addiction" could be reserved for the first thing. "Insufficient vigilance against superstimuli" is the shortest phrase I can think of right now. (I'm sad that I cannot use the word "vices" without provoking an immediate negative reaction: "vices" is shorter than "superstimuli".)

jamal-kumar 1y ago

I distinctly remember english speakers being less annoying before this guy filled everyone full of relating absolutely everything to trauma. It just seems like a massively reductionist point of view in a world of people more complex than that

Synaesthesia 1y ago
My initial.reactiom to his book on ADHD was similar, I couldn't believe that it could all be reduced to trauma. I've really come around to that theory though and I think he's very wise. We need to take a close look at the way we are living our lives under capitalism, the decisions we're forced to.make, and the way we treat our children.

Aurornis 1y ago

Gabor Maté is popular, but he’s an example of an influencer who has one tool (trauma treatment) and applies it to everything. His approach is extremely reductive. Many people get addicted to drugs simply because they like taking the drugs and have poor self control, not because they’re avoiding trauma. It’s another example of something that isn’t really correct for everyone but can be useful to get people to go to a therapist and get treatment.

nomadpenguin 1y ago
He also believes that he can remember full memories from when he was 3 months old. There is no evidence that this is possible.
- n4r9 1y ago
  Do you have a reference for that?

spjt 1y ago

As someone with an incredibly "addictive personality", I've always seen it much more simply. I become addicted to things when there's nothing else I'd rather be doing that is incompatible with the addictive behavior. Like if I'm sitting on the couch scrolling on my phone, if there was something else I'd rather do (not something that I'd "ought to" rather be doing but don't actually want to) then I would be doing that instead.

n4r9 1y ago
When I sit and observe my thoughts and feelings I find a complex mix of desires. Some that are immediate/basic/short-term vs some that are conceptual/nuanced/long-term. The eventual course of action is a delicate compromise. A lot of the time I'd rather just veg out than - say - go for a run or do some writing. But I might do the latter anyway because I recognise that it'll usually help me feel much better in 2 hours time. I guess the upshot is that "I'd rather be doing..." is not actually very simple at all IMO.