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Indeed. But what is a country? Is it a place where people live and have their identity, or does it need to be "ratified" by the UN? Before 1945 were there no "c

Indeed. But what is a country? Is it a place where people live and have their identity, or does it need to be "ratified" by the UN? Before 1945 were there no "countries"? Does it legitimise the invasion of someone's land? I don't think so

reliabilityguy 1y ago
> Before 1945 were there no "countries"? There were. They had their own government, and were able to have relationships with other countries. At what point in time Palestinians had their own government and country? I’ll remind you that during the mandate there was no Jordan as well. > Does it legitimise the invasion of someone's land? I don't think so Jews also owned land there during the mandate, the ottomans, and even before. Is it okay to take their land?
- McDyver 1y ago
  > Is it okay to take their land? Of course not! It's not OK to take anyone's anything. Edit: removing further comments. It would be ideal if everyone could just live in peace
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    > And that is the basis of all this fighting, why doesn't Israel stick to the initial borders they agreed to? Palestinians do not want to stick to those borders too. They want it all to themselves. I mean, you cannot expect Israeli government to sell the idea to their people that we are going to give it to the Palestinians and let's see what happens to us, right?
    - McDyver 1y ago
      I had removed the comment, but you replied in the meantime. I didn't want to add further fuel to this. But since you only picked up on that: what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians, is exactly what you are describing, but from the other side. It's not hypothetical. It's happening. When will they stop?
      - reliabilityguy 1y ago
        So, what are the actions that Palestinian government took to stop Israel? I mean, they were there to sign Oslo Accords, right? So, clearly they have a way to communicate and discuss issues to end this conflict. No? The open secret that for some reason nobody is willing to acknowledge is that Palestinians will never accept even the borders of 1948 — for Palestinians it’s all or nothing. You won’t find even a single popular politician that is okay with peace deal for a simple reason — they do not want it. So, what do you do?
        McDyver 1y ago
        What I did was remove my comment :) Obviously there is no straightforward solution, and I don't want to fuel this anymore.
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders,[0] while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders. 0. Which you referred to as the borders of 1948.
        reliabilityguy 1y ago
        > Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders Nope. They refused any deal, including the ones with a land swaps and capital in East Jerusalem. > while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders. Israelis offered land for peace multiple times. Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt. Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay" government-funded fund to incentivize more Palestinians to commit terrorist attacks.
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        The Palestinians offered peace many times. The Israelis refused. It goes both ways. One of the reasons why the Palestinians refused the Israeli offers was because the Israelis never offered the 1967 borders, which is what the Palestinians want. This is the exact opposite of what you're saying. > Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt. The difference is that the Egyptians had a serious army that scared the bejeezus out of the Israelis is 1973. Israel only respects the language of force. > Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay" Israel has a massive "pay for slay" program. It's called the IDF.
reliabilityguy 1y ago
I'll reply here > And that is the basis of all this fighting, why doesn't Israel stick to the initial borders they agreed to? You mean the ones that Palestinians do not want to stick to?

reliabilityguy 1y ago

> Before 1945 were there no "countries"? There were. They had their own government, and were able to have relationships with other countries. At what point in time Palestinians had their own government and country? I’ll remind you that during the mandate there was no Jordan as well. > Does it legitimise the invasion of someone's land? I don't think so Jews also owned land there during the mandate, the ottomans, and even before. Is it okay to take their land?

McDyver 1y ago
> Is it okay to take their land? Of course not! It's not OK to take anyone's anything. Edit: removing further comments. It would be ideal if everyone could just live in peace
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  > And that is the basis of all this fighting, why doesn't Israel stick to the initial borders they agreed to? Palestinians do not want to stick to those borders too. They want it all to themselves. I mean, you cannot expect Israeli government to sell the idea to their people that we are going to give it to the Palestinians and let's see what happens to us, right?
  - McDyver 1y ago
    I had removed the comment, but you replied in the meantime. I didn't want to add further fuel to this. But since you only picked up on that: what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians, is exactly what you are describing, but from the other side. It's not hypothetical. It's happening. When will they stop?
    - reliabilityguy 1y ago
      So, what are the actions that Palestinian government took to stop Israel? I mean, they were there to sign Oslo Accords, right? So, clearly they have a way to communicate and discuss issues to end this conflict. No? The open secret that for some reason nobody is willing to acknowledge is that Palestinians will never accept even the borders of 1948 — for Palestinians it’s all or nothing. You won’t find even a single popular politician that is okay with peace deal for a simple reason — they do not want it. So, what do you do?
      - McDyver 1y ago
        What I did was remove my comment :) Obviously there is no straightforward solution, and I don't want to fuel this anymore.
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders,[0] while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders. 0. Which you referred to as the borders of 1948.
        reliabilityguy 1y ago
        > Contrary to what you're claiming, a major point of disagreement in all the peace negotiations has been that the Palestinians want the 1967 borders Nope. They refused any deal, including the ones with a land swaps and capital in East Jerusalem. > while the Israelis insist on taking considerable territory beyond those borders. Israelis offered land for peace multiple times. Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt. Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay" government-funded fund to incentivize more Palestinians to commit terrorist attacks.
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        The Palestinians offered peace many times. The Israelis refused. It goes both ways. One of the reasons why the Palestinians refused the Israeli offers was because the Israelis never offered the 1967 borders, which is what the Palestinians want. This is the exact opposite of what you're saying. > Moreover, Israelis signed deals that were based on land for peace, e.g., Egypt. The difference is that the Egyptians had a serious army that scared the bejeezus out of the Israelis is 1973. Israel only respects the language of force. > Palestinians got autonomy only to establish a "pay for slay" Israel has a massive "pay for slay" program. It's called the IDF.

reliabilityguy 1y ago

I'll reply here > And that is the basis of all this fighting, why doesn't Israel stick to the initial borders they agreed to? You mean the ones that Palestinians do not want to stick to?