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Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. T

Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. There are also Palestinians who have chosen to be Israeli citizens, with the usual democratic rights and representation, with their own people in the Knesset, etc. And shooting enemies in a war is unfortunately not something you would investigate, it isn't even murder, it is just a consequence of war under the articles of war. In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Now you may (sometimes rightfully) claim that those investigations and punishments are too few, one-sided and not done by a neutral party. But those do happen, which by far isn't "nothing".

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
[flagged]
- akoboldfrying 1y ago
  > Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. > You're referring to the small minority of Palestinians who were not expelled by Israel in 1948. They and their descendants number about 2 million now. Your initial statement was highly sensational, strongly negative if true, and yet easily debunked. Statements like this on a contentious topic reduce one's credibility and the overall quality of discussion. Why do it?
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    If the United States were to strip 40% of its population (targeted on an ethnic basis) of citizenship and subject them martial law, would you consider it a democracy? The answer is obvious. You can pretend to be worried about credibility, but you know what you're defending.
    - akoboldfrying 1y ago
      I haven't so far defended anything other than the principle (in fact, merely the utility) of making arguments in good faith. You could have initially made the observation that a large fraction of Israel's population lack voting rights, and all of those people share an ethnicity -- but you chose instead to make a stronger and more alarming claim that you knew to be wrong. Arguing in good faith is a prerequisite of useful discussion, it's that simple. Until you accept this, statements you make will tend to undermine your position in readers' minds, not strengthen it.
- kgwgk 1y ago
  > a small enough minority Also the largest muslim minority outside of Africa.
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  > who were not expelled by Israel in 1948 A large fraction of “expelled” Palestinians were “expelled” because Arab armies told them to leave for the time of fighting. For some reason you ignore this fact and put it all on Israel “expelling” people.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    That's not true. It's a nationalist myth in Israel that was thoroughly debunked by none other than Israeli historians 40 years ago. Palestinians overwhelmingly fled because: * They were forced to at gunpoint by Zionist/Israeli forces, as at Ramle, Lod and many other places. * Their towns came under direct attack by Zionist forces, as at Haifa and many other places. * They feared for their lives, especially after Zionist massacres of Arab civilians at places like Deir Yassin became known. This has been documented in great detail by Israeli historians for each Palestinian town. For example, much of the population of Gaza comes from Palestinian towns that used to exist in what is now southern Israel. They were driven out and their towns were largely razed by Zionist forces in Operation Barak. Zionist forces had explicit orders to clear out the Arab population, which is what they did with extreme ruthlessness (including atrocities that are too horrible to describe on HN, but which you can read about in histories of the operation).
    - reliabilityguy 1y ago
      Well, Google says otherwise, eg with Haifa. So, it is not a clear cut. Saying that it was all evil zionists is history revisionism. Moreover, the Arab-Israeli war was full of expulsions from both sides. My original point still stands.
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        Haifa is a cut-and-dry case. There was a massive attack by Zionist paramilitaries on the Arab neighborhoods of Haifa in April 1948, which ended with almost the entire Arab population fleeing. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haifa_(1948) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haifa_(1948)
McDyver 1y ago
It makes sense that people don't want to become citizens and legitimise the entity occupying their country and committing genocide, no? > In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Obviously Israel doesn't consider children to be civilians https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro
- sva_ 1y ago
  > committing genocide I've been hearing this for as long as I can remember, yet the population numbers tell a completely different story. It makes no sense to speak of a genocide if the birthrate far outpaces any casualties. In fact, the Palestinian population has been growing at a faster pace than Israeli over the past 35 years (that's how far the chart goes on Google)
  - McDyver 1y ago
    Ah, OK. So, in that case they can be killed, but just in a culling kind of way, is that it? Your children can be killed as long as you keep making them?
    - tim333 1y ago
      It tends to be in a defensive or retaliatory way rather than culling. Like things largely peaceful October 6th Hamas kill 1200 Israelis, rape, hostages etc. Israels amazingly enough hits back. Hamas: "help! genocide!"
    - reliabilityguy 1y ago
      How do you propose to fight an asymmetric war? Genocide requires intent, not just a number of dead. If you judge by the numbers only, then US committed many genocides in the past 50 years.
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    So genocide hasn’t happened if the population grows? ‘Just adjust the frame of measurement. With this one simple trick, you can remove any genocide.’
7sigma 1y ago
Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same rights as the Israeli Jew, with more than 50 laws discrimination against them. They also face systemic discrimination and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Initially Palestinians within the Green lines were also under military occupation and only after 80% of the other Palestinians were either massacred or ethnically cleansed, so it was basically a forced acceptance. Israeli policy has always been to have a an ethnic supremacy for Jews, so the representation in the Knesset is tokenistic at best. If Israel decides to expel Palestinians in Israel, there's nothing they can do, its the tyranny of the majority. Palestinians in the West Bank do not have the option of becoming Israeli citizens, except under rare circumstances. Its laughable that when you say that there are investigations. The number of incidents of journalists, medics, hospital workers being murdered and even children being shot in the head with sniper bullets is shockingly high. One case is the murder of Hind Rajab where more 300 bullets were shot at the car she was into. Despite managing to call for an ambulance, Israel shelled it killing all the ambulance crew and 6 year old Hind Rajab. Another example is the 15 ambulance crew murdered by Israel forces and then buried. Even before the genocide, the murder of the Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was proved to have been done by Israel, after they repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Another case was this one, where a soldier emptied his magazine in a 13 year old and was judged not guilty (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2) The examples and many others are many and have been documented by the ICC and other organisations. Saying that it's not nothing is a distinction without a difference
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  > and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Marriage laws have nothing to do with apartheid, a system that uses race to differentiate peoples. There are plenty of countries where marriage is done on religion basis and there is no civil marriage at all. What does it have to do with Palestinians?
  - 7sigma 1y ago
    Because it is imposed by a a colonial population on the native Palestinians in order to maintain a jewish majority in the ethnostate.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

[flagged]

akoboldfrying 1y ago
> Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. > You're referring to the small minority of Palestinians who were not expelled by Israel in 1948. They and their descendants number about 2 million now. Your initial statement was highly sensational, strongly negative if true, and yet easily debunked. Statements like this on a contentious topic reduce one's credibility and the overall quality of discussion. Why do it?
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  If the United States were to strip 40% of its population (targeted on an ethnic basis) of citizenship and subject them martial law, would you consider it a democracy? The answer is obvious. You can pretend to be worried about credibility, but you know what you're defending.
  - akoboldfrying 1y ago
    I haven't so far defended anything other than the principle (in fact, merely the utility) of making arguments in good faith. You could have initially made the observation that a large fraction of Israel's population lack voting rights, and all of those people share an ethnicity -- but you chose instead to make a stronger and more alarming claim that you knew to be wrong. Arguing in good faith is a prerequisite of useful discussion, it's that simple. Until you accept this, statements you make will tend to undermine your position in readers' minds, not strengthen it.
kgwgk 1y ago
> a small enough minority Also the largest muslim minority outside of Africa.
reliabilityguy 1y ago
> who were not expelled by Israel in 1948 A large fraction of “expelled” Palestinians were “expelled” because Arab armies told them to leave for the time of fighting. For some reason you ignore this fact and put it all on Israel “expelling” people.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  That's not true. It's a nationalist myth in Israel that was thoroughly debunked by none other than Israeli historians 40 years ago. Palestinians overwhelmingly fled because: * They were forced to at gunpoint by Zionist/Israeli forces, as at Ramle, Lod and many other places. * Their towns came under direct attack by Zionist forces, as at Haifa and many other places. * They feared for their lives, especially after Zionist massacres of Arab civilians at places like Deir Yassin became known. This has been documented in great detail by Israeli historians for each Palestinian town. For example, much of the population of Gaza comes from Palestinian towns that used to exist in what is now southern Israel. They were driven out and their towns were largely razed by Zionist forces in Operation Barak. Zionist forces had explicit orders to clear out the Arab population, which is what they did with extreme ruthlessness (including atrocities that are too horrible to describe on HN, but which you can read about in histories of the operation).
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    Well, Google says otherwise, eg with Haifa. So, it is not a clear cut. Saying that it was all evil zionists is history revisionism. Moreover, the Arab-Israeli war was full of expulsions from both sides. My original point still stands.
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      Haifa is a cut-and-dry case. There was a massive attack by Zionist paramilitaries on the Arab neighborhoods of Haifa in April 1948, which ended with almost the entire Arab population fleeing. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haifa_(1948) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haifa_(1948)

McDyver 1y ago

It makes sense that people don't want to become citizens and legitimise the entity occupying their country and committing genocide, no? > In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Obviously Israel doesn't consider children to be civilians https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro

sva_ 1y ago
> committing genocide I've been hearing this for as long as I can remember, yet the population numbers tell a completely different story. It makes no sense to speak of a genocide if the birthrate far outpaces any casualties. In fact, the Palestinian population has been growing at a faster pace than Israeli over the past 35 years (that's how far the chart goes on Google)
- McDyver 1y ago
  Ah, OK. So, in that case they can be killed, but just in a culling kind of way, is that it? Your children can be killed as long as you keep making them?
  - tim333 1y ago
    It tends to be in a defensive or retaliatory way rather than culling. Like things largely peaceful October 6th Hamas kill 1200 Israelis, rape, hostages etc. Israels amazingly enough hits back. Hamas: "help! genocide!"
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    How do you propose to fight an asymmetric war? Genocide requires intent, not just a number of dead. If you judge by the numbers only, then US committed many genocides in the past 50 years.
- lostlogin 1y ago
  So genocide hasn’t happened if the population grows? ‘Just adjust the frame of measurement. With this one simple trick, you can remove any genocide.’

7sigma 1y ago

Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same rights as the Israeli Jew, with more than 50 laws discrimination against them. They also face systemic discrimination and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Initially Palestinians within the Green lines were also under military occupation and only after 80% of the other Palestinians were either massacred or ethnically cleansed, so it was basically a forced acceptance. Israeli policy has always been to have a an ethnic supremacy for Jews, so the representation in the Knesset is tokenistic at best. If Israel decides to expel Palestinians in Israel, there's nothing they can do, its the tyranny of the majority. Palestinians in the West Bank do not have the option of becoming Israeli citizens, except under rare circumstances. Its laughable that when you say that there are investigations. The number of incidents of journalists, medics, hospital workers being murdered and even children being shot in the head with sniper bullets is shockingly high. One case is the murder of Hind Rajab where more 300 bullets were shot at the car she was into. Despite managing to call for an ambulance, Israel shelled it killing all the ambulance crew and 6 year old Hind Rajab. Another example is the 15 ambulance crew murdered by Israel forces and then buried. Even before the genocide, the murder of the Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was proved to have been done by Israel, after they repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Another case was this one, where a soldier emptied his magazine in a 13 year old and was judged not guilty (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2) The examples and many others are many and have been documented by the ICC and other organisations. Saying that it's not nothing is a distinction without a difference

reliabilityguy 1y ago
> and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Marriage laws have nothing to do with apartheid, a system that uses race to differentiate peoples. There are plenty of countries where marriage is done on religion basis and there is no civil marriage at all. What does it have to do with Palestinians?
- 7sigma 1y ago
  Because it is imposed by a a colonial population on the native Palestinians in order to maintain a jewish majority in the ethnostate.