9 ms·

Almost none of what you wrote above is true, no idea how is this a top comment. Israel is a democracy. Netanyahu's trail is still ongoing, the war did not stop

by Asafp 1y ago

Almost none of what you wrote above is true, no idea how is this a top comment. Israel is a democracy. Netanyahu's trail is still ongoing, the war did not stop the trails and until he is proven guilty (and if) he should not go to jail. He did not stop any elections, Israel have elections every 4 years, it still did not pass 4 years since last elections. Israel is not perfect, but it is a democracy. Source: Lives in Israel.

mouveon 1y ago
Israel is so much of a democracy that netanyahu is prosecuted by the ICC court since almost a full year and still travels everywhere like a man free of guilt
- chgs 1y ago
  How is that related to the method of selecting the government of Israel?
- thyristan 1y ago
  Prosecution is not equal to being guilty. In fact, during prosecution, he is still presumed innocent, only a trial that comes after the prosecution can find him guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a basic tenet of jurisprudence, even in many non-democratic societies. For a democratic society, it is a necessary condition. That Netanyahu still walks free is a consequence of a) Israel not being party to the ICC, therefore not bound to obey their prosecutors' requests and b) the countries he travels to not being party to the ICC either or c) the ICC member states he travels to guaranteeing diplomatic immunity as is tradition for an invited diplomatic guest. c) is actually a problem, but not one of Israel being undemocratic, but of the respective member states being hypocrites for disobeying the ICC while still being members.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - wrasee 1y ago
    Prosecution isn’t actually the issue, the ICC have issued an arrest warrant for him. “All 125 ICC member states, including France and the United Kingdom, are required to arrest Netanyahu and Gallant if they enter the state's territory”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Israeli_leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_a...
    - thyristan 1y ago
      Same difference. The arrest warrant was issued by the ICC prosecutor as part of his prosecution. The arrest warrant was not issued by an ICC judge after having reached a "guilty" verdict. In any case, the states you name are under category c), they should arrest him but don't. Still not an issue of Israel being undemocratic whatsoever.
- Thorrez 1y ago
  Isn't that how most people who are being prosecuted behave, except those for whom the judge imposed a travel restriction?
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    The ‘war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts’ sounds like something that warrants locking someone up pending trial as a matter of safety. If he isn’t guilty, defend the charge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Israeli_leaders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court...
    - Thorrez 1y ago
      Oh, there's an arrest warrant for him. That's different from what I had thought. I thought he had been arrested and released on bail pending the outcome of a trial, which is quite common in the US. Does he "still travel everywhere"? The article mentions him travelling to Hungary and not being arrested despite Hungary having signed the treaty. The article doesn't mention him travelling anywhere else.
- e-brake 1y ago
  I question the legitimacy of the ICC, considering their impartiality and failure to take action against Hamas
  - wrasee 1y ago
    Except they have. They issued an arrest warrant for Mohammed Deif, the Hamas military commander who if arrested would almost certainly stand trial. Of course that won’t happen now since Israel got to him first.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. There are 5 million Palestinians living under permanent Israeli rule who have no rights at all. No citizenship. No civil rights. Not even the most basic human rights. They can be imprisoned indefinitely without charges. They can be shot, and nothing will happen. This has been the situation for nearly 60 years now. No other country like this would be called a democracy.
- thyristan 1y ago
  Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. There are also Palestinians who have chosen to be Israeli citizens, with the usual democratic rights and representation, with their own people in the Knesset, etc. And shooting enemies in a war is unfortunately not something you would investigate, it isn't even murder, it is just a consequence of war under the articles of war. In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Now you may (sometimes rightfully) claim that those investigations and punishments are too few, one-sided and not done by a neutral party. But those do happen, which by far isn't "nothing".
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - akoboldfrying 1y ago
      > Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. > You're referring to the small minority of Palestinians who were not expelled by Israel in 1948. They and their descendants number about 2 million now. Your initial statement was highly sensational, strongly negative if true, and yet easily debunked. Statements like this on a contentious topic reduce one's credibility and the overall quality of discussion. Why do it?
wrasee 1y ago
If you have no idea why this is the top comment then that explains so much. You say you live in Israel, I wonder how much of the international perspective cuts through to your general lived experience, outside of checking a foreign newspaper once in a while? I doubt many even do that. Almost everything you said is technically true, but with a degree of selective reasoning that is remarkably disingenuous. Conversely, the top comment is far less accurate but captures a feeling that resonates much more widely. Netanyahu is one of the most disliked politicians in the world, and for some very good and obvious reasons (as well as some unfortunately much less so, which in fact he consistently exploits to muddy the water to his advantage) From a broad reading on the subject it’s obvious to me why this is the top comment.
- Asafp 1y ago
  You think I live under a rock? I probably know more than you. I wrote facts, while you talk about "capturing a feeling". This is a top comment for the same reason people think AIPAC controls the USA or why the expulsion of Jews from Spain happened [1]. The fact that Netanyahu is disliked around the world (and even by me and many of my friends) does not change the nature of Israel being a democracy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain
thrance 1y ago
Israel is an apartheid state, many people living there can't get citizenship. Everything you call democratic there is not, then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid?wprov=sfla1
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - thrance 1y ago
    Well then which is it? Is the West Bank Israeli or is Israel illegally occupying and colonizing the Palestinian state? You can't have both when it suits you. Israel considers Gaza and the West Bank to be part of its territory, the people living there since forever are then citizens. Simple second class ones, which is the definition of an apartheid.
    - reliabilityguy 1y ago
      Which is it what? These are occupied territories that in part governed by the Palestinian Authority. Israel doesn’t consider Gaza its own territory whatsoever. Israel completely left Gaza in 2005. Why would they do it if they considered Gaza to be Israel?

by Asafp 1y ago

mouveon 1y ago

Israel is so much of a democracy that netanyahu is prosecuted by the ICC court since almost a full year and still travels everywhere like a man free of guilt

chgs 1y ago
How is that related to the method of selecting the government of Israel?
thyristan 1y ago
Prosecution is not equal to being guilty. In fact, during prosecution, he is still presumed innocent, only a trial that comes after the prosecution can find him guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a basic tenet of jurisprudence, even in many non-democratic societies. For a democratic society, it is a necessary condition. That Netanyahu still walks free is a consequence of a) Israel not being party to the ICC, therefore not bound to obey their prosecutors' requests and b) the countries he travels to not being party to the ICC either or c) the ICC member states he travels to guaranteeing diplomatic immunity as is tradition for an invited diplomatic guest. c) is actually a problem, but not one of Israel being undemocratic, but of the respective member states being hypocrites for disobeying the ICC while still being members.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- wrasee 1y ago
  Prosecution isn’t actually the issue, the ICC have issued an arrest warrant for him. “All 125 ICC member states, including France and the United Kingdom, are required to arrest Netanyahu and Gallant if they enter the state's territory”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Israeli_leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_a...
  - thyristan 1y ago
    Same difference. The arrest warrant was issued by the ICC prosecutor as part of his prosecution. The arrest warrant was not issued by an ICC judge after having reached a "guilty" verdict. In any case, the states you name are under category c), they should arrest him but don't. Still not an issue of Israel being undemocratic whatsoever.
Thorrez 1y ago
Isn't that how most people who are being prosecuted behave, except those for whom the judge imposed a travel restriction?
- lostlogin 1y ago
  The ‘war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts’ sounds like something that warrants locking someone up pending trial as a matter of safety. If he isn’t guilty, defend the charge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Israeli_leaders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court...
  - Thorrez 1y ago
    Oh, there's an arrest warrant for him. That's different from what I had thought. I thought he had been arrested and released on bail pending the outcome of a trial, which is quite common in the US. Does he "still travel everywhere"? The article mentions him travelling to Hungary and not being arrested despite Hungary having signed the treaty. The article doesn't mention him travelling anywhere else.
e-brake 1y ago
I question the legitimacy of the ICC, considering their impartiality and failure to take action against Hamas
- wrasee 1y ago
  Except they have. They issued an arrest warrant for Mohammed Deif, the Hamas military commander who if arrested would almost certainly stand trial. Of course that won’t happen now since Israel got to him first.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. There are 5 million Palestinians living under permanent Israeli rule who have no rights at all. No citizenship. No civil rights. Not even the most basic human rights. They can be imprisoned indefinitely without charges. They can be shot, and nothing will happen. This has been the situation for nearly 60 years now. No other country like this would be called a democracy.

thyristan 1y ago
Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. There are also Palestinians who have chosen to be Israeli citizens, with the usual democratic rights and representation, with their own people in the Knesset, etc. And shooting enemies in a war is unfortunately not something you would investigate, it isn't even murder, it is just a consequence of war under the articles of war. In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Now you may (sometimes rightfully) claim that those investigations and punishments are too few, one-sided and not done by a neutral party. But those do happen, which by far isn't "nothing".
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - akoboldfrying 1y ago
    > Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity. > You're referring to the small minority of Palestinians who were not expelled by Israel in 1948. They and their descendants number about 2 million now. Your initial statement was highly sensational, strongly negative if true, and yet easily debunked. Statements like this on a contentious topic reduce one's credibility and the overall quality of discussion. Why do it?

wrasee 1y ago

If you have no idea why this is the top comment then that explains so much. You say you live in Israel, I wonder how much of the international perspective cuts through to your general lived experience, outside of checking a foreign newspaper once in a while? I doubt many even do that. Almost everything you said is technically true, but with a degree of selective reasoning that is remarkably disingenuous. Conversely, the top comment is far less accurate but captures a feeling that resonates much more widely. Netanyahu is one of the most disliked politicians in the world, and for some very good and obvious reasons (as well as some unfortunately much less so, which in fact he consistently exploits to muddy the water to his advantage) From a broad reading on the subject it’s obvious to me why this is the top comment.

Asafp 1y ago
You think I live under a rock? I probably know more than you. I wrote facts, while you talk about "capturing a feeling". This is a top comment for the same reason people think AIPAC controls the USA or why the expulsion of Jews from Spain happened [1]. The fact that Netanyahu is disliked around the world (and even by me and many of my friends) does not change the nature of Israel being a democracy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain

thrance 1y ago

Israel is an apartheid state, many people living there can't get citizenship. Everything you call democratic there is not, then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid?wprov=sfla1

reliabilityguy 1y ago
[flagged]
- thrance 1y ago
  Well then which is it? Is the West Bank Israeli or is Israel illegally occupying and colonizing the Palestinian state? You can't have both when it suits you. Israel considers Gaza and the West Bank to be part of its territory, the people living there since forever are then citizens. Simple second class ones, which is the definition of an apartheid.
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    Which is it what? These are occupied territories that in part governed by the Palestinian Authority. Israel doesn’t consider Gaza its own territory whatsoever. Israel completely left Gaza in 2005. Why would they do it if they considered Gaza to be Israel?