4 ms·

Let's not pretend EU is much better. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/europe-crackdown-free-speech-26d021b1?st=41DzPa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https:/

by veeti 1y ago

Let's not pretend EU is much better. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/europe-crackdown-free-speech-26d021b1?st=41DzPa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/europe-crackdown-free-speec...

aosaigh 1y ago
Give me a break. Comparing Turkey to the EU at large is asinine
- smotched 1y ago
  How is it asinine? they both restrict speech and they both have no concept of "freedom of speech". The only difference is what they choose to censor.
  - bsoles 1y ago
    Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you know how many journalists are in prison in Turkey? "Restricting speech", whatever that means, is nowhere near as putting journalists, mayors, and citizens in prison for "insulting" the president or for saying things that the president and his shills do not like.
    - smotched 1y ago
      It would help to read the article we're discussing. > Journalist posted a fake image online of the interior minister holding a sign that read “I hate freedom of opinion” and was subsequently handed a seven-month suspended prison sentence. A woman who posted images of politicians with painted-on Hitler mustaches and called a minister a terrorist was fined about $690.
      - seszett 1y ago
        It's probably useless to answer, but you are not addressing the question, which was about whether there are actually journalists in prison in the EU or not (there are not) whereas imprisonment of journalists in Turkey is an occupational hazard.
        smotched 1y ago
        I've given you the most direct example anyone can give, a journalist that was legally handed a prison sentence for basic speech. There are more cases in other EU countries in the article, just read.
  - selcuka 1y ago
    You are a victim of the Nirvana fallacy [1]: "Europe is better than Turkey in terms of freedom of speech, but since neither is perfect, they are equally bad." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
    - yoyopa 1y ago
      [dead]
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      You are a victim of fallacy fallacy [0]: “Just because the argument has a fallacy doesn’t make it automatically false”. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy?wprov=sf...
      - kelnos 1y ago
        No, but at least in this case, the fact that it's false does make it false.
  - pornel 1y ago
    The US is not that exceptional nor principled. The concept of "freedom of speech" is absolute when Republicans want to say Republican things, but it's a "national security issue" when Muslims make too much noise. When sexual minorities want to speak, the priority is to "protect family values" instead. Corporations have "freedom of speech", but TikTok boosting black-green-red flags isn't protected speech, but an agent of the enemy corrupting the youth. European countries have their own dogmas and hypocrisy, only draw the line at different topics (especially where everyone had their grandparents traumatized in a war started by the Grok's favorite character).
    - smotched 1y ago
      Could you give examples of when a U.S. citizens speech rights were legally taken away? Lets go with one of your examples of "When sexual minorities want to speak". Please elaborate. None of the examples you gave are actually examples of speech being restricted. Its people (sometimes politicians) freely voicing their opinions on others speech, that is not restriction.
      - saghm 1y ago
        Literally in the last week, the Supreme Court ruled that books featuring gay couples need to be opt-out in schools. They've quite literally taken the stance that someone literally just seeing the existence of a gay couple in a children's picture book is a violation of their freedom.
        anamax 1y ago
        > They've quite literally taken the stance that someone literally just seeing the existence of a gay couple in a children's picture book is a violation of their freedom. No. They've taken the stance that parents get to decide what books their kids see. Other parents are free to make a different decision. Do you really think that there's a "right" to force others to read books that you choose?
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  - r721 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
torlok 1y ago
Did you even read that article? The first paragraph mentions a UK woman who posted "Mass deportation now. Set fire to all the f—ing hotels full of the bastards for all I care. (...)". The rest is also mostly about the UK, not the EU. There's a case of prosecuting satire from Germany mentioned that I'll admit is bad, but that's one example in one EU country.
- veeti 1y ago
  Did you? Let me spoonfeed you the most relevant parts: > A German right-wing journalist posted a fake image online of the interior minister holding a sign that read “I hate freedom of opinion” and was subsequently handed a seven-month suspended prison sentence. A woman who posted images of politicians with painted-on Hitler mustaches and called a minister a terrorist was fined about $690. ... > In France, a woman spent 23 hours in custody for giving French President Emmanuel Macron the middle finger. (She was acquitted after arguing she had pointed her finger in the air and not directly at the president.) Denmark passed a new law outlawing “improper treatment” of religious texts after a series of incidents in recent years when Quran burnings sparked an angry response. A landmark trial began in May for two men accused of burning a Quran at a folk festival in front of an audience. ... > In March last year, Stefan Willi Niehoff, a 64-year-old former soldier and retired truck driver, reposted an image he had seen shared on X that showed then-Economy Minister Robert Habeck with the words “Schwachkopf Professional,” which translates to “professional idiot” and was a take on the logo from cosmetics brand Schwarzkopf Professional. Then he forgot about it. Months later, Niehoff was awakened by a ring at the door at 6:15 a.m. to find two plainclothes police officers demanding to search his home. These are EU countries. Despite Brexit it is apparent that EU and the UK are still on the same page when it comes to curtailing free speech and expanding the surveillance state.
stodor89 1y ago
It is much better though. What EU country has been headed by the same person for 22 years? What EU country has its greatest ever football player flipping burgers at the other end of the world under a fake name, because he dared to not show full support for the supreme leader? What EU country faked a coup in order to change laws, so that the supreme leader can stay in power, ban opposition, and oppress minorities? I mean yeah, EU certainly has a long, long, LONG list of problems, but let's not lose sight of the big picture.

by veeti 1y ago

aosaigh 1y ago

Give me a break. Comparing Turkey to the EU at large is asinine

smotched 1y ago
How is it asinine? they both restrict speech and they both have no concept of "freedom of speech". The only difference is what they choose to censor.
- bsoles 1y ago
  Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you know how many journalists are in prison in Turkey? "Restricting speech", whatever that means, is nowhere near as putting journalists, mayors, and citizens in prison for "insulting" the president or for saying things that the president and his shills do not like.
  - smotched 1y ago
    It would help to read the article we're discussing. > Journalist posted a fake image online of the interior minister holding a sign that read “I hate freedom of opinion” and was subsequently handed a seven-month suspended prison sentence. A woman who posted images of politicians with painted-on Hitler mustaches and called a minister a terrorist was fined about $690.
    - seszett 1y ago
      It's probably useless to answer, but you are not addressing the question, which was about whether there are actually journalists in prison in the EU or not (there are not) whereas imprisonment of journalists in Turkey is an occupational hazard.
      - smotched 1y ago
        I've given you the most direct example anyone can give, a journalist that was legally handed a prison sentence for basic speech. There are more cases in other EU countries in the article, just read.
- selcuka 1y ago
  You are a victim of the Nirvana fallacy [1]: "Europe is better than Turkey in terms of freedom of speech, but since neither is perfect, they are equally bad." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
  - yoyopa 1y ago
    [dead]
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    You are a victim of fallacy fallacy [0]: “Just because the argument has a fallacy doesn’t make it automatically false”. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy?wprov=sf...
    - kelnos 1y ago
      No, but at least in this case, the fact that it's false does make it false.
- pornel 1y ago
  The US is not that exceptional nor principled. The concept of "freedom of speech" is absolute when Republicans want to say Republican things, but it's a "national security issue" when Muslims make too much noise. When sexual minorities want to speak, the priority is to "protect family values" instead. Corporations have "freedom of speech", but TikTok boosting black-green-red flags isn't protected speech, but an agent of the enemy corrupting the youth. European countries have their own dogmas and hypocrisy, only draw the line at different topics (especially where everyone had their grandparents traumatized in a war started by the Grok's favorite character).
  - smotched 1y ago
    Could you give examples of when a U.S. citizens speech rights were legally taken away? Lets go with one of your examples of "When sexual minorities want to speak". Please elaborate. None of the examples you gave are actually examples of speech being restricted. Its people (sometimes politicians) freely voicing their opinions on others speech, that is not restriction.
    - saghm 1y ago
      Literally in the last week, the Supreme Court ruled that books featuring gay couples need to be opt-out in schools. They've quite literally taken the stance that someone literally just seeing the existence of a gay couple in a children's picture book is a violation of their freedom.
      - anamax 1y ago
        > They've quite literally taken the stance that someone literally just seeing the existence of a gay couple in a children's picture book is a violation of their freedom. No. They've taken the stance that parents get to decide what books their kids see. Other parents are free to make a different decision. Do you really think that there's a "right" to force others to read books that you choose?
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
- r721 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

torlok 1y ago

Did you even read that article? The first paragraph mentions a UK woman who posted "Mass deportation now. Set fire to all the f—ing hotels full of the bastards for all I care. (...)". The rest is also mostly about the UK, not the EU. There's a case of prosecuting satire from Germany mentioned that I'll admit is bad, but that's one example in one EU country.

veeti 1y ago
Did you? Let me spoonfeed you the most relevant parts: > A German right-wing journalist posted a fake image online of the interior minister holding a sign that read “I hate freedom of opinion” and was subsequently handed a seven-month suspended prison sentence. A woman who posted images of politicians with painted-on Hitler mustaches and called a minister a terrorist was fined about $690. ... > In France, a woman spent 23 hours in custody for giving French President Emmanuel Macron the middle finger. (She was acquitted after arguing she had pointed her finger in the air and not directly at the president.) Denmark passed a new law outlawing “improper treatment” of religious texts after a series of incidents in recent years when Quran burnings sparked an angry response. A landmark trial began in May for two men accused of burning a Quran at a folk festival in front of an audience. ... > In March last year, Stefan Willi Niehoff, a 64-year-old former soldier and retired truck driver, reposted an image he had seen shared on X that showed then-Economy Minister Robert Habeck with the words “Schwachkopf Professional,” which translates to “professional idiot” and was a take on the logo from cosmetics brand Schwarzkopf Professional. Then he forgot about it. Months later, Niehoff was awakened by a ring at the door at 6:15 a.m. to find two plainclothes police officers demanding to search his home. These are EU countries. Despite Brexit it is apparent that EU and the UK are still on the same page when it comes to curtailing free speech and expanding the surveillance state.

stodor89 1y ago

It is much better though. What EU country has been headed by the same person for 22 years? What EU country has its greatest ever football player flipping burgers at the other end of the world under a fake name, because he dared to not show full support for the supreme leader? What EU country faked a coup in order to change laws, so that the supreme leader can stay in power, ban opposition, and oppress minorities? I mean yeah, EU certainly has a long, long, LONG list of problems, but let's not lose sight of the big picture.