6 ms·

I used to be fine with it, until I started writing my own software tools, then looking at how to actually do stuff with systemd and I'm like, nope nope nope nop

I used to be fine with it, until I started writing my own software tools, then looking at how to actually do stuff with systemd and I'm like, nope nope nope nope. At some point when I have space for a new project I'm going to migrate from Arch to Obarun, which uses a modern update on the excellent daemontools to provide init. When systemd works it's mostly fine, when it breaks, path of least resistance is often to reinstall the OS. Which is fine if you're just working on it. Painful if it's your personal machine, and those are what's most likely to break systemd.

akdev1l 1y ago
> when it breaks, path of least resistance is often to reinstall the OS Can you elaborate how do you even break this? Adding a systemd unit cannot really break much on systemd itself. Unless you’re messing with internal systemd stuff, I am not sure what is even there to break.
- vinceguidry 1y ago
  At the moment, on this machine I'm using, audio just doesn't work. Dunno why. Tried a few different things to fix it, no dice. Trying to troubleshoot is made enormously more difficult by the complexity of systemd. If I had a simpler system I could run it all the way back to the source, but really, I can't be bothered, I don't really need audio on this machine atm.
jauntywundrkind 1y ago
This doesn't match my experience at all. For the life of me, I cannot imagine what you are talking about, what any of your issues are. Did you file any tickets, or report any issues? What about "actually doing stuff with systems" was "nope nope nope nope"? What situations did systemd break in? What did you try before giving up to reinstall the OS? Thise fud train is cast aspersions, no meat.
- Jubijub 1y ago
  +1, systemd is very usable, and works. I would really not go back to what was before
- vinceguidry 1y ago
  You probably use a desktop environment like GNOME or KDE. Maybe do some light coding in an IDE. I do not. I run window manager only, i3, with a really stripped down toolset. I like the idea of knowing my system in and out. My current project is writing my own shell. It can switch between command mode and ruby REPL with ctrl-z. You mention filing tickets / reporting issues, sorry, that means contributing to a project. I'm not wholly opposed to doing that, but I have to like the project first. And there's nothing to like about systemd. You go do that if you like it so much. My guess is you simply won't, and will just keep using other people's software without a care in the world, thinking this kind of online warriorship is actually helping anything.
  - jauntywundrkind 1y ago
    Bro, I've been running wmii since before i3 forked off from it. Don't come at me with this dripping disdainful attitude, pretending like you are some high and mighty elite system whisperer. It's so unfortunate that there is such a widespread persistence of hater-dom. It's so toxic and awful, and so rarely does it have even the faintest shred of anything to stand up on. I struggle so much to see these attractors into the negative as so compelling, so ensnaring of the human souls as they have been lately. Systemd is amazing, provides such a rich world versus piecemeal poorly managed systems of yore. Yes you could understand init scripts with very little effort but what a sad virtue, to dare to go no further than what an afternoon of exploration might get you.
    - vinceguidry 1y ago
      I don't fucking hate systemd. I'm marginally glad it exists. I just don't want to live under it's despotic regime. You might like it because you think trains running on time is more important than freedom. You're the one coming at me with fucking attitude, like a 16 year old who just discovered IntelliJ. I have done the exploration, then looked online for why everything is so damn complicated now. It's because systemd colonized the world. It's not just an init system, it's everything below the userland. And a lot of those components are very poorly designed. And it's this big ball of mush where if you use one component, thy must use them all. It's so bad Arch does not support replacing systemd, like at all. You're totally on your own. Go ahead, try replacing systemd components in an Arch system. I'll wait. And lose the fucking attitude.
rafaelgoncalves 1y ago
i have the same sentiment, and for me systemd was getting so slow and hard to tshoot (the tools to analyze boot graphs and sequence showed service sequence breakage, some times there is no problem, sometimes sequence changed and problem happened) and i just changed for another distro without systemd and boom, startup in seconds no problem at all.
- vinceguidry 1y ago
  Which distro did you land on?
  - rafaelgoncalves 1y ago
    I switched to Void Linux, have been great so far.

akdev1l 1y ago

> when it breaks, path of least resistance is often to reinstall the OS Can you elaborate how do you even break this? Adding a systemd unit cannot really break much on systemd itself. Unless you’re messing with internal systemd stuff, I am not sure what is even there to break.

vinceguidry 1y ago
At the moment, on this machine I'm using, audio just doesn't work. Dunno why. Tried a few different things to fix it, no dice. Trying to troubleshoot is made enormously more difficult by the complexity of systemd. If I had a simpler system I could run it all the way back to the source, but really, I can't be bothered, I don't really need audio on this machine atm.

jauntywundrkind 1y ago

This doesn't match my experience at all. For the life of me, I cannot imagine what you are talking about, what any of your issues are. Did you file any tickets, or report any issues? What about "actually doing stuff with systems" was "nope nope nope nope"? What situations did systemd break in? What did you try before giving up to reinstall the OS? Thise fud train is cast aspersions, no meat.

Jubijub 1y ago
+1, systemd is very usable, and works. I would really not go back to what was before
vinceguidry 1y ago
You probably use a desktop environment like GNOME or KDE. Maybe do some light coding in an IDE. I do not. I run window manager only, i3, with a really stripped down toolset. I like the idea of knowing my system in and out. My current project is writing my own shell. It can switch between command mode and ruby REPL with ctrl-z. You mention filing tickets / reporting issues, sorry, that means contributing to a project. I'm not wholly opposed to doing that, but I have to like the project first. And there's nothing to like about systemd. You go do that if you like it so much. My guess is you simply won't, and will just keep using other people's software without a care in the world, thinking this kind of online warriorship is actually helping anything.
- jauntywundrkind 1y ago
  Bro, I've been running wmii since before i3 forked off from it. Don't come at me with this dripping disdainful attitude, pretending like you are some high and mighty elite system whisperer. It's so unfortunate that there is such a widespread persistence of hater-dom. It's so toxic and awful, and so rarely does it have even the faintest shred of anything to stand up on. I struggle so much to see these attractors into the negative as so compelling, so ensnaring of the human souls as they have been lately. Systemd is amazing, provides such a rich world versus piecemeal poorly managed systems of yore. Yes you could understand init scripts with very little effort but what a sad virtue, to dare to go no further than what an afternoon of exploration might get you.
  - vinceguidry 1y ago
    I don't fucking hate systemd. I'm marginally glad it exists. I just don't want to live under it's despotic regime. You might like it because you think trains running on time is more important than freedom. You're the one coming at me with fucking attitude, like a 16 year old who just discovered IntelliJ. I have done the exploration, then looked online for why everything is so damn complicated now. It's because systemd colonized the world. It's not just an init system, it's everything below the userland. And a lot of those components are very poorly designed. And it's this big ball of mush where if you use one component, thy must use them all. It's so bad Arch does not support replacing systemd, like at all. You're totally on your own. Go ahead, try replacing systemd components in an Arch system. I'll wait. And lose the fucking attitude.

rafaelgoncalves 1y ago

i have the same sentiment, and for me systemd was getting so slow and hard to tshoot (the tools to analyze boot graphs and sequence showed service sequence breakage, some times there is no problem, sometimes sequence changed and problem happened) and i just changed for another distro without systemd and boom, startup in seconds no problem at all.

vinceguidry 1y ago
Which distro did you land on?
- rafaelgoncalves 1y ago
  I switched to Void Linux, have been great so far.