6 ms·

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly workin

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a problem. It's just one more radio to configure. Some people run both Zigbee and Zwave, some people run Zigbee + Wi-Fi or even Zigbee + Zwave + Wi-Fi + cloud integrations, Home Assistant doesn't care.

darkwater 1y ago
Yes, but then you have a hard-dependency on HA for inter-network communication, which I try to avoid as much as possible (but I fail to, for a couple of subsystems). My failure model is: 1) no electricity, everything down but fiber, wifi, HA and the doorbell (they run off an UPS) 2) internet down: no problem, you just cannot reach the home automation from outside 3) Home assistant down: zigbee devices are paired together (like buttons + bulbs) or I have physical zigbee relays controlling dumb bulbs. But, as said, I have some subsystem not fully working when (3) happens, like a zigbee button controlling a tasmota-based fan control.
- orev 1y ago
  I consider it a requirement of any smart home that alternative methods need to be available during failures. Simply having other devices around that aren’t smart, like an old fashioned light bulb and physical switch to get you through until you can fix whatever is down. 100% uptime is very difficult for large, well-funded IT companies, so I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect it from these consumer-grade devices. We survived for over 100 years by getting up and flipping a wall switch, so the risk of a few hours without smart features shouldn’t be a showstopper.
  - Marsymars 1y ago
    Lutron Caseta switches don’t use an open protocol and don’t seem to get much love in the fancy consumer-level smarthome space, but have been bomb-proof for reliability for me and work to turn lights on/off as long as they have power.
baq 1y ago
zigbee has one great advantage over everything else: it's immune to DHCP and DNS failures and misconfigurations. if you're running a pihole or something, it can break iot devices in random ways if your DHCP server boots after your access points. (don't ask me how I know and the fix was to hard reboot my lights by cycling power in the distribution box. not great, not terrible.)
- g1sm 1y ago
  Thread doesn’t depend on DHCP or DNS either.
lopis 1y ago
I use HA and all my IKEA lamps are zigbee. Raspberry pi obviously doesn't have native zigbee radio support, so I have a USB zigbee antenna. Now this means if I buy any more IKEA lamps, I would need a second antenna, and the new lamps would not integrate into the zigbee mesh network. It really sucks.
- buremba 1y ago
  I'm in the same boat; HA is making a considerable effort, but connectivity is challenging. I was a bit frustrated when I found out that the antennas don't support both Zigbee and Matter simultaneously, despite the claim. You can only support one at a time, so apparently we will need the second antenna.
- cameronh90 1y ago
  Some USB zigbee dongles can be flashed to be "multi-PAN", but my experience is it's currently buggy and I would let them bake that for a bit longer. Alternatively, both Sonoff and Home Assistant do a thread dongle for about $30 that you can use simultaneously with a zigbee one. Plus if you have any of the following, they can be used as a Thread border router: Apple TV, HomePod, Echo G4, Eero 6/7, Nest Hub, Nest Wifi, Google TV Streamer. There's also the OpenThread Border Router which can be used on certain ESP32 hardware (ESP32-S3 for $10 or ESP32-H2 for $6?) but that obviously requires more work.
macNchz 1y ago
Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really care for the way it became a sysadmin job where the stakes of a bad update or me not reading some release notes were that my light switches didn't work until I sat there and futzed around with it. I'm a programmer, enjoy Linux admin, run a whole bunch of servers....but having to dive into logs and YAML configs because the lights in my kitchen won't turn off is just not ideal. Similar issues with HomeKit, except when things mysteriously stop working there's even less ability to diagnose, given Apple's design principles that everything "just works", so apparently providing detailed error messages or diagnostics is gauche.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  What you’re describing hasn’t happened to me yet with Home Assistant luckily, even after 5+ years of running it. I can’t remember an update ever breaking any of my stuff. I’m running a docker container though so YMMV. Might be different with the other install types.
  - rtkwe 1y ago
    Me neither, but I'm running the HA Yellow dedicated low power hardware instead so I can keep it running off my battery backup longer just so it lasts as long as it can along with my internet during outages.
- arcbyte 1y ago
  I use SmartThings and ive never missed with any configs at all. Only ever one single app - smartthings. Ive been extremely happy after dozens of devices.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    Same. Their Hub (now sold by Aeotec) does Z-Wave, Zigbee, and Thread. There is also a pretty active plugin community.
barbazoo 1y ago
Agree. It’s a hassle to set up once but then you quickly forget about it.
philjohn 1y ago
Yes and no. Pairing a Matter device takes much longer than pairing a Zigbee device through Z2M in my experience, and the Matter add-on still sometimes needs restarting as it refuses to allow any more devices to pair after a while. But - rather than need a Zigbee dongle (or manufacturer hub) if you've got Apple or Google devices such as HomePods you've got a ready made Thread network as they act as border routers.
poulpy123 1y ago
most people don't want to manage a self-hosted server just for interacting with some smart devices in their home
BuildTheRobots 1y ago
HA doesn't care but your radio environment probably does. One of the great strengths of Zigbee is the mesh network - it doesn't matter where in my house I dump something, because all my bulbs are Zigbee repeaters it's going to get a signal and be able to route back to my HA box. If I now get a _single_ Thread/Matter/Zwave device to replace one that's broken, ignoring the cost of a new radio for HA, I have to give very serious thought to where it's going to live vs signal availability as I build out yet another network. tldr: HA is fantastic for coordinating disparate devices, but RF still bites.
cameronh90 1y ago
It is still somewhat annoying for those of us with solid walls. I can't just add a new Thread device at the other side of my house as the walls attenuate the signal between it and the border router. Equally I can't start replacing Zigbee devices willy-nilly in case I create Zigbee dead zones. Not the biggest problem in the world but it does mean I'll likely need to get some pointless Thread smart plugs as temporary network extenders when I add my first Thread device.
- archagon 1y ago
  I wish Matter accounted for mixed-mode networks. If a Thread device is nearby, use that. If not, try Wi-Fi.
aenis 1y ago
Depends on your 2.4GHz band's saturation. Where I live I have only a few "good" channels. I have about 350 zigbee devices over two separate networks - and thus two channels - and the remaining good 2.4GHz channels are used by the physically separate IoT WiFi network. I dont want to deal with yet another network that may or may not like the channel I have to put it on.
WhyNotHugo 1y ago
You can configure Zigbee devices to interact directly to each other, without using the hub as a middle-man for all their communication (the hub only does the configuration itself). This doesn't work when mixing Zigbee+NonZigbee devices. See: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home I would think that as smart homes become more popular the number of people not using the defaults will rapidly decrease and manufacturers will be less and less beholden to them.
eternityforest 1y ago
Is HA ready for non-hobbyists yet? It always seems like you need $100+ dollars of hardware to run it well, not just a pi and an SD card. It seems like it's a lot better now, but until recently it didn't seem like it was anywhere near PLC grade reliability. Is it up to the level where you could install it at a non-technical users house and expect it to run for five years without maintenance?
- lopis 1y ago
  I've been using HA with a Pi, an SD card and a second hand zigbee dongle for the past 3 years. As long as you are able to read instructions to flash the SD card, you can use HA.
- Toutouxc 1y ago
  I installed HA Green [0] (and their Zigbee dongle) at my in-laws house, FIL is a non-IT smart guy and is happily managing and even adding his own stuff. [0] https://www.home-assistant.io/green/ https://www.home-assistant.io/green/

darkwater 1y ago

Yes, but then you have a hard-dependency on HA for inter-network communication, which I try to avoid as much as possible (but I fail to, for a couple of subsystems). My failure model is: 1) no electricity, everything down but fiber, wifi, HA and the doorbell (they run off an UPS) 2) internet down: no problem, you just cannot reach the home automation from outside 3) Home assistant down: zigbee devices are paired together (like buttons + bulbs) or I have physical zigbee relays controlling dumb bulbs. But, as said, I have some subsystem not fully working when (3) happens, like a zigbee button controlling a tasmota-based fan control.

orev 1y ago
I consider it a requirement of any smart home that alternative methods need to be available during failures. Simply having other devices around that aren’t smart, like an old fashioned light bulb and physical switch to get you through until you can fix whatever is down. 100% uptime is very difficult for large, well-funded IT companies, so I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect it from these consumer-grade devices. We survived for over 100 years by getting up and flipping a wall switch, so the risk of a few hours without smart features shouldn’t be a showstopper.
- Marsymars 1y ago
  Lutron Caseta switches don’t use an open protocol and don’t seem to get much love in the fancy consumer-level smarthome space, but have been bomb-proof for reliability for me and work to turn lights on/off as long as they have power.

baq 1y ago

zigbee has one great advantage over everything else: it's immune to DHCP and DNS failures and misconfigurations. if you're running a pihole or something, it can break iot devices in random ways if your DHCP server boots after your access points. (don't ask me how I know and the fix was to hard reboot my lights by cycling power in the distribution box. not great, not terrible.)

g1sm 1y ago
Thread doesn’t depend on DHCP or DNS either.

lopis 1y ago

I use HA and all my IKEA lamps are zigbee. Raspberry pi obviously doesn't have native zigbee radio support, so I have a USB zigbee antenna. Now this means if I buy any more IKEA lamps, I would need a second antenna, and the new lamps would not integrate into the zigbee mesh network. It really sucks.

buremba 1y ago
I'm in the same boat; HA is making a considerable effort, but connectivity is challenging. I was a bit frustrated when I found out that the antennas don't support both Zigbee and Matter simultaneously, despite the claim. You can only support one at a time, so apparently we will need the second antenna.
cameronh90 1y ago
Some USB zigbee dongles can be flashed to be "multi-PAN", but my experience is it's currently buggy and I would let them bake that for a bit longer. Alternatively, both Sonoff and Home Assistant do a thread dongle for about $30 that you can use simultaneously with a zigbee one. Plus if you have any of the following, they can be used as a Thread border router: Apple TV, HomePod, Echo G4, Eero 6/7, Nest Hub, Nest Wifi, Google TV Streamer. There's also the OpenThread Border Router which can be used on certain ESP32 hardware (ESP32-S3 for $10 or ESP32-H2 for $6?) but that obviously requires more work.

macNchz 1y ago

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really care for the way it became a sysadmin job where the stakes of a bad update or me not reading some release notes were that my light switches didn't work until I sat there and futzed around with it. I'm a programmer, enjoy Linux admin, run a whole bunch of servers....but having to dive into logs and YAML configs because the lights in my kitchen won't turn off is just not ideal. Similar issues with HomeKit, except when things mysteriously stop working there's even less ability to diagnose, given Apple's design principles that everything "just works", so apparently providing detailed error messages or diagnostics is gauche.

barbazoo 1y ago
What you’re describing hasn’t happened to me yet with Home Assistant luckily, even after 5+ years of running it. I can’t remember an update ever breaking any of my stuff. I’m running a docker container though so YMMV. Might be different with the other install types.
- rtkwe 1y ago
  Me neither, but I'm running the HA Yellow dedicated low power hardware instead so I can keep it running off my battery backup longer just so it lasts as long as it can along with my internet during outages.
arcbyte 1y ago
I use SmartThings and ive never missed with any configs at all. Only ever one single app - smartthings. Ive been extremely happy after dozens of devices.
- microtonal 1y ago
  Same. Their Hub (now sold by Aeotec) does Z-Wave, Zigbee, and Thread. There is also a pretty active plugin community.

barbazoo 1y ago

Agree. It’s a hassle to set up once but then you quickly forget about it.

philjohn 1y ago

Yes and no. Pairing a Matter device takes much longer than pairing a Zigbee device through Z2M in my experience, and the Matter add-on still sometimes needs restarting as it refuses to allow any more devices to pair after a while. But - rather than need a Zigbee dongle (or manufacturer hub) if you've got Apple or Google devices such as HomePods you've got a ready made Thread network as they act as border routers.

poulpy123 1y ago

most people don't want to manage a self-hosted server just for interacting with some smart devices in their home

BuildTheRobots 1y ago

HA doesn't care but your radio environment probably does. One of the great strengths of Zigbee is the mesh network - it doesn't matter where in my house I dump something, because all my bulbs are Zigbee repeaters it's going to get a signal and be able to route back to my HA box. If I now get a _single_ Thread/Matter/Zwave device to replace one that's broken, ignoring the cost of a new radio for HA, I have to give very serious thought to where it's going to live vs signal availability as I build out yet another network. tldr: HA is fantastic for coordinating disparate devices, but RF still bites.

cameronh90 1y ago

It is still somewhat annoying for those of us with solid walls. I can't just add a new Thread device at the other side of my house as the walls attenuate the signal between it and the border router. Equally I can't start replacing Zigbee devices willy-nilly in case I create Zigbee dead zones. Not the biggest problem in the world but it does mean I'll likely need to get some pointless Thread smart plugs as temporary network extenders when I add my first Thread device.

archagon 1y ago
I wish Matter accounted for mixed-mode networks. If a Thread device is nearby, use that. If not, try Wi-Fi.

aenis 1y ago

Depends on your 2.4GHz band's saturation. Where I live I have only a few "good" channels. I have about 350 zigbee devices over two separate networks - and thus two channels - and the remaining good 2.4GHz channels are used by the physically separate IoT WiFi network. I dont want to deal with yet another network that may or may not like the channel I have to put it on.

WhyNotHugo 1y ago

You can configure Zigbee devices to interact directly to each other, without using the hub as a middle-man for all their communication (the hub only does the configuration itself). This doesn't work when mixing Zigbee+NonZigbee devices. See: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html

AlecSchueler 1y ago

> if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home I would think that as smart homes become more popular the number of people not using the defaults will rapidly decrease and manufacturers will be less and less beholden to them.

eternityforest 1y ago

Is HA ready for non-hobbyists yet? It always seems like you need $100+ dollars of hardware to run it well, not just a pi and an SD card. It seems like it's a lot better now, but until recently it didn't seem like it was anywhere near PLC grade reliability. Is it up to the level where you could install it at a non-technical users house and expect it to run for five years without maintenance?

lopis 1y ago
I've been using HA with a Pi, an SD card and a second hand zigbee dongle for the past 3 years. As long as you are able to read instructions to flash the SD card, you can use HA.
Toutouxc 1y ago
I installed HA Green [0] (and their Zigbee dongle) at my in-laws house, FIL is a non-IT smart guy and is happily managing and even adding his own stuff. [0] https://www.home-assistant.io/green/ https://www.home-assistant.io/green/