17 ms·

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying r

• Toutouxc 1y ago
  > If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a problem. It's just one more radio to configure. Some people run both Zigbee and Zwave, some people run Zigbee + Wi-Fi or even Zigbee + Zwave + Wi-Fi + cloud integrations, Home Assistant doesn't care.
  • darkwater 1y ago
    Yes, but then you have a hard-dependency on HA for inter-network communication, which I try to avoid as much as possible (but I fail to, for a couple of subsystems). My failure model is: 1) no electricity, everything down but fiber, wifi, HA and the doorbell (they run off an UPS) 2) internet down: no problem, you just cannot reach the home automation from outside 3) Home assistant down: zigbee devices are paired together (like buttons + bulbs) or I have physical zigbee relays controlling dumb bulbs. But, as said, I have some subsystem not fully working when (3) happens, like a zigbee button controlling a tasmota-based fan control.
    • orev 1y ago
      I consider it a requirement of any smart home that alternative methods need to be available during failures. Simply having other devices around that aren’t smart, like an old fashioned light bulb and physical switch to get you through until you can fix whatever is down. 100% uptime is very difficult for large, well-funded IT companies, so I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect it from these consumer-grade devices. We survived for over 100 years by getting up and flipping a wall switch, so the risk of a few hours without smart features shouldn’t be a showstopper.
      • Marsymars 1y ago
        Lutron Caseta switches don’t use an open protocol and don’t seem to get much love in the fancy consumer-level smarthome space, but have been bomb-proof for reliability for me and work to turn lights on/off as long as they have power.
  • baq 1y ago
    zigbee has one great advantage over everything else: it's immune to DHCP and DNS failures and misconfigurations. if you're running a pihole or something, it can break iot devices in random ways if your DHCP server boots after your access points. (don't ask me how I know and the fix was to hard reboot my lights by cycling power in the distribution box. not great, not terrible.)
    • g1sm 1y ago
      Thread doesn’t depend on DHCP or DNS either.
  • lopis 1y ago
    I use HA and all my IKEA lamps are zigbee. Raspberry pi obviously doesn't have native zigbee radio support, so I have a USB zigbee antenna. Now this means if I buy any more IKEA lamps, I would need a second antenna, and the new lamps would not integrate into the zigbee mesh network. It really sucks.
    • buremba 1y ago
      I'm in the same boat; HA is making a considerable effort, but connectivity is challenging. I was a bit frustrated when I found out that the antennas don't support both Zigbee and Matter simultaneously, despite the claim. You can only support one at a time, so apparently we will need the second antenna.
    • cameronh90 1y ago
      Some USB zigbee dongles can be flashed to be "multi-PAN", but my experience is it's currently buggy and I would let them bake that for a bit longer. Alternatively, both Sonoff and Home Assistant do a thread dongle for about $30 that you can use simultaneously with a zigbee one. Plus if you have any of the following, they can be used as a Thread border router: Apple TV, HomePod, Echo G4, Eero 6/7, Nest Hub, Nest Wifi, Google TV Streamer. There's also the OpenThread Border Router which can be used on certain ESP32 hardware (ESP32-S3 for $10 or ESP32-H2 for $6?) but that obviously requires more work.
  • macNchz 1y ago
    Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really care for the way it became a sysadmin job where the stakes of a bad update or me not reading some release notes were that my light switches didn't work until I sat there and futzed around with it. I'm a programmer, enjoy Linux admin, run a whole bunch of servers....but having to dive into logs and YAML configs because the lights in my kitchen won't turn off is just not ideal. Similar issues with HomeKit, except when things mysteriously stop working there's even less ability to diagnose, given Apple's design principles that everything "just works", so apparently providing detailed error messages or diagnostics is gauche.
    • barbazoo 1y ago
      What you’re describing hasn’t happened to me yet with Home Assistant luckily, even after 5+ years of running it. I can’t remember an update ever breaking any of my stuff. I’m running a docker container though so YMMV. Might be different with the other install types.
      • rtkwe 1y ago
        Me neither, but I'm running the HA Yellow dedicated low power hardware instead so I can keep it running off my battery backup longer just so it lasts as long as it can along with my internet during outages.
    • arcbyte 1y ago
      I use SmartThings and ive never missed with any configs at all. Only ever one single app - smartthings. Ive been extremely happy after dozens of devices.
      • microtonal 1y ago
        Same. Their Hub (now sold by Aeotec) does Z-Wave, Zigbee, and Thread. There is also a pretty active plugin community.
  • barbazoo 1y ago
    Agree. It’s a hassle to set up once but then you quickly forget about it.
  • philjohn 1y ago
    Yes and no. Pairing a Matter device takes much longer than pairing a Zigbee device through Z2M in my experience, and the Matter add-on still sometimes needs restarting as it refuses to allow any more devices to pair after a while. But - rather than need a Zigbee dongle (or manufacturer hub) if you've got Apple or Google devices such as HomePods you've got a ready made Thread network as they act as border routers.
  • poulpy123 1y ago
    most people don't want to manage a self-hosted server just for interacting with some smart devices in their home
  • BuildTheRobots 1y ago
    HA doesn't care but your radio environment probably does. One of the great strengths of Zigbee is the mesh network - it doesn't matter where in my house I dump something, because all my bulbs are Zigbee repeaters it's going to get a signal and be able to route back to my HA box. If I now get a _single_ Thread/Matter/Zwave device to replace one that's broken, ignoring the cost of a new radio for HA, I have to give very serious thought to where it's going to live vs signal availability as I build out yet another network. tldr: HA is fantastic for coordinating disparate devices, but RF still bites.
  • cameronh90 1y ago
    It is still somewhat annoying for those of us with solid walls. I can't just add a new Thread device at the other side of my house as the walls attenuate the signal between it and the border router. Equally I can't start replacing Zigbee devices willy-nilly in case I create Zigbee dead zones. Not the biggest problem in the world but it does mean I'll likely need to get some pointless Thread smart plugs as temporary network extenders when I add my first Thread device.
    • archagon 1y ago
      I wish Matter accounted for mixed-mode networks. If a Thread device is nearby, use that. If not, try Wi-Fi.
  • aenis 1y ago
    Depends on your 2.4GHz band's saturation. Where I live I have only a few "good" channels. I have about 350 zigbee devices over two separate networks - and thus two channels - and the remaining good 2.4GHz channels are used by the physically separate IoT WiFi network. I dont want to deal with yet another network that may or may not like the channel I have to put it on.
  • WhyNotHugo 1y ago
    You can configure Zigbee devices to interact directly to each other, without using the hub as a middle-man for all their communication (the hub only does the configuration itself). This doesn't work when mixing Zigbee+NonZigbee devices. See: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/guide/usage/binding.html
  • AlecSchueler 1y ago
    > if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home I would think that as smart homes become more popular the number of people not using the defaults will rapidly decrease and manufacturers will be less and less beholden to them.
  • eternityforest 1y ago
    Is HA ready for non-hobbyists yet? It always seems like you need $100+ dollars of hardware to run it well, not just a pi and an SD card. It seems like it's a lot better now, but until recently it didn't seem like it was anywhere near PLC grade reliability. Is it up to the level where you could install it at a non-technical users house and expect it to run for five years without maintenance?
    • lopis 1y ago
      I've been using HA with a Pi, an SD card and a second hand zigbee dongle for the past 3 years. As long as you are able to read instructions to flash the SD card, you can use HA.
    • Toutouxc 1y ago
      I installed HA Green [0] (and their Zigbee dongle) at my in-laws house, FIL is a non-IT smart guy and is happily managing and even adding his own stuff. [0] https://www.home-assistant.io/green/ https://www.home-assistant.io/green/
• wkat4242 1y ago
  Yeah and matter needs internet access in many cases. It was supposed to be the saviour of open home automation. But in practice it leaves too many strings attached that the manufacturer can take advantage of. And despite it not being open enough for open source enthusiasts, it's also got a bad name with manufacturers. I work for one and I asked why we wouldn't implement matter and thread and it was laughed off because apparently marketing will never give up their own app as a data collection and cross selling vehicle. Of course those are exactly the reasons I don't want this. I didn't even know about the certification that only big players can do and the locked firmware requirements. It's ridiculous. Why were thread and matter hailed as the open revolution when they're exactly the opposite?
  • K0balt 1y ago
    >Why were thread and matter hailed as the open revolution when they're exactly the opposite? Subterfuge PR or the subversion of original intention by greed. Also, wasn’t there recent news that thread was being abandoned by manufacturers, even declaring it EOL? Or am I conflating that with something else?
    • umbra07 1y ago
      I remember an interview [1] with the Nanoleaf CEO (they switched to Thread over Matter years ahead of everyone else) about why Thread/Matter was so difficult, why everyone else didn't adopt it, and that they're going to wait for Thread to get better before they launch new products with it. On the other hand, I believe all the major Thread Border Router manufacturers (Apple, Google, Amazon, Samsung) have updated their Thread routers or committed to updating their Thread routers to Thread v1.4, which is a pretty major upgrade. [1] https://matter-smarthome.de/en/interview/nanoleaf-ceo-gimmy-chu-on-thread-problems-in-matter/ https://matter-smarthome.de/en/interview/nanoleaf-ceo-gimmy-...
      • K0balt 1y ago
        Yeah, doesn’t sound like EOL to me. Must have been some other IOT/PAN technology.
• tommysve 1y ago
  What a shit load of disinformation you are spreading. Read up on Matter and Thread, please.
  • echelon 1y ago
    Can I make a Matter device for myself?
    • olalonde 1y ago
      Yes. https://developers.home.google.com/codelabs/matter-device https://developers.home.google.com/codelabs/matter-device
      • snickerdoodle12 1y ago
        Can I sell it without paying a gazillion fees? Spoiler alert: No. There's a whole bunch of bullshit: https://developers.home.google.com/matter/integration/pair#pairing_restrictions https://developers.home.google.com/matter/integration/pair#p... You can sort of run your own device if you're fine with giving google far too much information and they can block you at any time. Face it, bigtech has a hardon for closed ecosystems. If they could they'd make it so every computer that wants to send an ethernet packet has a private key blessed by some bigtech cabal which they can revoke, but luckily for us this standard predates this gross new fetish.
        • olalonde 1y ago
          Do you extend that criticism to USB, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc.? The alternative and current status quo is every vendor developing their own proprietary, incompatible and insecure protocols. Unless there's a better alternative I am unaware of, Matter is a step towards greater interoperability and openness.
          • snickerdoodle12 1y ago
            I do, but it's especially grating here because Zigbee didn't have this restriction, and none of your examples actually enforce it technically. I have some Chinese USB devices that are very useful but use an incorrect VendorID. But I don't care, they work great. And besides, so far I've been able to use 100% of my Zigbee devices with Zigbee2MQTT and it's been wonderful.
• olalonde 1y ago
  That's incorrect. Matter is an open standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)
  • vorpalhex 1y ago
    Matter is "open" in that it is published. It is not "open" in that you can make a matter device in your basement. Here is the Silabs explainer on the certification process: https://docs.silabs.com/matter/latest/matter-certification/ https://docs.silabs.com/matter/latest/matter-certification/
    • CharlesW 1y ago
      > It is not "open" in that you can make a matter device in your basement. You can! You just can't ship it/sell it without certification. https://www.reddit.com/r/homeassistant/comments/1adh8ah/esp32_c3_running_matter_firmware_connected_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/homeassistant/comments/1adh8ah/esp3...
    • olalonde 1y ago
      > It is not "open" in that you can make a matter device in your basement. I did exactly that last week... Certification is required if you want to use the trademarked logo in your marketing materials (same as with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth afaik).
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • devnullbrain 1y ago
    >the ability to commission a finished product into a Matter network in the field mandates certification and membership fees,[15][16] entailing both one-time, recurring, and per-product costs.[17] This is enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and so-called device attestation certificates.[15] Thank you for the clarification?
    • deleted 1y ago
• FabHK 1y ago
  > Matter is a closed ecosystem If "closed" means open to anyone that has their product certified to adhere to the rules, then I'm ok with that.
• OptionOfT 1y ago
  I don't think that is entirely correct. Just like Apple HomeKit you can add devices that aren't certified. It shows a warning, but apart from that it functions like a normal device (for as far as I can tell). I have been using https://github.com/t0bst4r/home-assistant-matter-hub https://github.com/t0bst4r/home-assistant-matter-hub to expose my home assistant devices to Google Home without having to expose my Home Assistant to the cloud. Second, certification is what separates Z-Wave from Zigbee which in my (n=1) experience means less issues in terms of compatibility. Of course, with that GitHub package I shared all of that goes through the window, but who cares? I can clone the code and modify it.
  • CharlesW 1y ago
    > Just like Apple HomeKit you can add devices that aren't certified. It shows a warning, but apart from that it functions like a normal device (for as far as I can tell). Correct.
  • therealpygon 1y ago
    I’d say it was entirely incorrect. PKI and attestation are things done by the manufacturer using a publish open standard. Manufacturers are not required to certify anything or pay a single royalty. Certification is optional and has other benefits which includes jointing the Thread Group (which steers the standard); the costs are simply a way of funding both the certification process (which requires people) and the Group, which also provides support and other resources (which again, requires people). Basically, it’s not much different than when an Open Source project is supported by a company that separately offers an “Enterprise” option where they host the application and provide additional Enterprise features and support. It’s not required, but a business might choose to do it.
• comandillos 1y ago
  This isn't entirely true, isn't it? I mean, the whole internet runs on a PKI and we need such a mechanism to ensure secure communication across devices in the network. I understand home devices that contain all sort of sensors and actuators should be handled in a similar fashion, isn't it? I mean, that PKI doesn't exclude non-approved manufacturers from producing Matter devices, you can always trust their PAA (their CA) in your border router if it's not a well-known manufacturer. And also, I am pretty sure that if this is the case the Matter border router should warn you of this and ignore the fact that the PAA is not in the local store of root CAs (as we did in the times when we had https without Let's Encrypt and didn't want to pay Comodo to sign our certs)
  • vineyardmike 1y ago
    You’re partially correct, but you’ve got enough details wrong details that you’re misrepresenting reality. Matter has a public blockchain with certificates added to enforce which products are considered certified. This is called the distributed compliance ledger (DCL). The hardware devices are expected to ship with certificates on them that match the public ones, and it’s generally not possible to change the on-device certs. This is distinct from “normal” internet PKI certificate authority where you can just swap out a few files or grab a new cert from Let’s Encrypt. Because this uses a dedicated blockchain with a history of signatures. Depending on how you want to control the device, you’d need to rebuild the whole chain of trust, including eg signatures from Google or Apple. Also, from a practical perspective, I’m not sure of any actual controllers that let you point to different certificate sources. You can create devices with a “test vendor ID” (0xFFFF) and the controllers are supposed to ignore certs. This has downsides, like OTA updates require signing, you can’t encode proper identifiers in the device so info pages in apps are wrong, etc. Also, the “border router” isn’t really the point of trust here, it’d be the actual controller device. A border router is just that, an IP router, like a WiFi router or a Ethernet router. https://webui.dcl.csa-iot.org/ https://webui.dcl.csa-iot.org/
• Larrikin 1y ago
  I didn't believe any of the information in this post is correct.