4 ms·

who is non-democratic and why?

raxxorraxor 1y ago
The EU institution because of pragmatic and systematic properties. Ultimately to say something is democratic or not is a subjective opinion, but EU proponents have made the mistake to brush such criticism away. Since then the EU is mostly developing in a wrong direction.
- dmos62 1y ago
  How is democracy subjective? Because most democracy is indirect?
  - raxxorraxor 1y ago
    Democracy is a real democracy if voters feel represented. Perhaps there is a voter here and there that has an objective perspective if representation is enough or not. But I wouldn't bet on it. But you said yourself, that there are different lavels of directness. That is the core argument where everyone has different expectations.
    - bmicraft 1y ago
      The core argument sounds a lot like "it's not true if I don't feel like it's true". Which of course decades of anti-eu parties and ads can have a massive impact on.
      - raxxorraxor 1y ago
        You don't have to engage with this kind of criticism but it isn't entirely recent or new nor too complicated ot understand the issues people might have.
- Sammi 1y ago
  Who is not democratically elected? The EU Parliament is directly elected. The EU Council is comprised of EU country head of states, which are all directly elected. The EU Council and EU Parliament then elect the EU Comission. Sounds democratic to me.
  - nwellnhof 1y ago
    The EU Parliament is not democratically elected because votes from member states have a different weight. The election is free but not fair. It's also one of the few parliaments that can't propose laws on their own but can only veto laws proposed by the EU Commission. The powerful EU Commission being appointed by governments (and again only approved by the Parliament) is a form of executive federalism. This makes the chain of legitimacy longer and longer which is hardly positive for democracy.
    - rini17 1y ago
      In the US, votes in the congress, senate and president have exactly equal weights between states? Not an expert but I suspect we're in the kettle-pot area here. Not even getting into abysmal voting procedure/implementation which would be inconceivable in the EU.
    - PunchTornado 1y ago
      in most contries votes have different weights. look at the US, or other western countries where minorities for example are boosted to be represented in the parliament. judging by this no country is democratic.
    - Sammi 1y ago
      Small states are usually given more weight in parliament. This is commonly considered more democratic. The commission is elected by the parliament. This is democratic. Would it be an improvement if parliament could propose laws and commission members. Maybe. But saying that this makes the EU undemocratic is unreasonable.
  - raxxorraxor 1y ago
    To you it may be democratic enough. Not for me and the parliament lacks legislative initiative which in reality means the commission steers the ship. It is more of a bureaucratic technocracy with democratic fig leaves. People often attribute competence to technocracies, but that is an illusion. Also I don't believe you can move up government function to layers above your national government and still call it representative. In reality the culture and circumstances of parliament members is too far removed from the voters. I also cannot know the other representatives, so my voting decision will always be restricted to a shallow popularity contest. But as explained, this doesn't matter, because the elected representatives cannot implement any agenda.

The EU institution because of pragmatic and systematic properties. Ultimately to say something is democratic or not is a subjective opinion, but EU proponents have made the mistake to brush such criticism away. Since then the EU is mostly developing in a wrong direction.

dmos62 1y ago
How is democracy subjective? Because most democracy is indirect?
- raxxorraxor 1y ago
  Democracy is a real democracy if voters feel represented. Perhaps there is a voter here and there that has an objective perspective if representation is enough or not. But I wouldn't bet on it. But you said yourself, that there are different lavels of directness. That is the core argument where everyone has different expectations.
  - bmicraft 1y ago
    The core argument sounds a lot like "it's not true if I don't feel like it's true". Which of course decades of anti-eu parties and ads can have a massive impact on.
    - raxxorraxor 1y ago
      You don't have to engage with this kind of criticism but it isn't entirely recent or new nor too complicated ot understand the issues people might have.
Sammi 1y ago
Who is not democratically elected? The EU Parliament is directly elected. The EU Council is comprised of EU country head of states, which are all directly elected. The EU Council and EU Parliament then elect the EU Comission. Sounds democratic to me.
- nwellnhof 1y ago
  The EU Parliament is not democratically elected because votes from member states have a different weight. The election is free but not fair. It's also one of the few parliaments that can't propose laws on their own but can only veto laws proposed by the EU Commission. The powerful EU Commission being appointed by governments (and again only approved by the Parliament) is a form of executive federalism. This makes the chain of legitimacy longer and longer which is hardly positive for democracy.
  - rini17 1y ago
    In the US, votes in the congress, senate and president have exactly equal weights between states? Not an expert but I suspect we're in the kettle-pot area here. Not even getting into abysmal voting procedure/implementation which would be inconceivable in the EU.
  - PunchTornado 1y ago
    in most contries votes have different weights. look at the US, or other western countries where minorities for example are boosted to be represented in the parliament. judging by this no country is democratic.
  - Sammi 1y ago
    Small states are usually given more weight in parliament. This is commonly considered more democratic. The commission is elected by the parliament. This is democratic. Would it be an improvement if parliament could propose laws and commission members. Maybe. But saying that this makes the EU undemocratic is unreasonable.
- raxxorraxor 1y ago
  To you it may be democratic enough. Not for me and the parliament lacks legislative initiative which in reality means the commission steers the ship. It is more of a bureaucratic technocracy with democratic fig leaves. People often attribute competence to technocracies, but that is an illusion. Also I don't believe you can move up government function to layers above your national government and still call it representative. In reality the culture and circumstances of parliament members is too far removed from the voters. I also cannot know the other representatives, so my voting decision will always be restricted to a shallow popularity contest. But as explained, this doesn't matter, because the elected representatives cannot implement any agenda.