3 ms·

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life". It's discussing an ideology for the r

by t-3 1y ago

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life". It's discussing an ideology for the ruling class, by the ruling class. The 0.01% and maybe people who aspire to join them are the only audience.

deleted 1y ago
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alganet 1y ago
That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use. Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"? It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I said, by being old, and being eastern, and being philosophical, it suggests wisdom. It's like Häagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not. It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but people fell for it for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_bra...
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  > Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Is this a problem you have? You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” The best seem to be misguided, idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like counting.
  - alganet 1y ago
    > Is this a problem you have? Maybe I do to a certain level. It is an awareness of the environment in which I grew up. > You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar?
    - TimorousBestie 1y ago
      > Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar? Clever rhetoric, but false.
      - alganet 1y ago
        Why is it false? Please focus on the context. We're discussing an ideological text for supposed aspiring leaders (the text self-describes as it, which I highlighted). What compelled you to criticize the ruling class in this discussion? More specifically, what compelled you to talk about leadership in contrast to the more analytical objection that I raised (skepticism towards the intended interpretation of the text)?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
zdragnar 1y ago
> "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own particular obligation to the other. These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in parts. We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives. When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures. Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives, however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.
- alganet 1y ago
  That's not the point. Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value? The answer is: I shouldn't.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
    Ah, if that's the case, then I suggest instead that (as we are in the age of AI) you should take absolutely nothing you see on the Internet at face value.
    - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
      i think that was fairly true even before AI. even before the internet.

by t-3 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

alganet 1y ago

That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use. Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"? It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I said, by being old, and being eastern, and being philosophical, it suggests wisdom. It's like Häagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not. It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but people fell for it for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_bra...

TimorousBestie 1y ago
> Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Is this a problem you have? You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” The best seem to be misguided, idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like counting.
- alganet 1y ago
  > Is this a problem you have? Maybe I do to a certain level. It is an awareness of the environment in which I grew up. > You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar?
  - TimorousBestie 1y ago
    > Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar? Clever rhetoric, but false.
    - alganet 1y ago
      Why is it false? Please focus on the context. We're discussing an ideological text for supposed aspiring leaders (the text self-describes as it, which I highlighted). What compelled you to criticize the ruling class in this discussion? More specifically, what compelled you to talk about leadership in contrast to the more analytical objection that I raised (skepticism towards the intended interpretation of the text)?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

zdragnar 1y ago

> "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own particular obligation to the other. These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in parts. We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives. When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures. Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives, however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.

alganet 1y ago
That's not the point. Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value? The answer is: I shouldn't.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  Ah, if that's the case, then I suggest instead that (as we are in the age of AI) you should take absolutely nothing you see on the Internet at face value.
  - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
    i think that was fairly true even before AI. even before the internet.