5 ms·

Over the years, I've seen many charlatans use eastern references to manipulate western audiences. These kinds of texts, therefore, must be taken with caution.

Over the years, I've seen many charlatans use eastern references to manipulate western audiences. These kinds of texts, therefore, must be taken with caution. Which parts are "actual wisdom that I can apply to my life", and which parts are my own mind playing a trick of "it's old, and it's eastern, it's humble and it's philosophical, therefore is wisdom I can apply to my life". So, I'm not questioning whether there is wisdom there or not. I'm questioning whether I can apply that wisdom to my life, through western eyes. This part is particularly troubling: > The first four points are essential to any 21st century ruling ideology that aims to be both moral and effective Again, not saying that there isn't wisdom here. But should I apply this kind of wisdom using western eyes? I, personally, think I shouldn't.

t-3 1y ago
I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life". It's discussing an ideology for the ruling class, by the ruling class. The 0.01% and maybe people who aspire to join them are the only audience.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- alganet 1y ago
  That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use. Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"? It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I said, by being old, and being eastern, and being philosophical, it suggests wisdom. It's like Häagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not. It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but people fell for it for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_bra...
  - TimorousBestie 1y ago
    > Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Is this a problem you have? You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” The best seem to be misguided, idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like counting.
    - alganet 1y ago
      > Is this a problem you have? Maybe I do to a certain level. It is an awareness of the environment in which I grew up. > You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar?
      - TimorousBestie 1y ago
        > Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar? Clever rhetoric, but false.
        alganet 1y ago
        Why is it false? Please focus on the context. We're discussing an ideological text for supposed aspiring leaders (the text self-describes as it, which I highlighted). What compelled you to criticize the ruling class in this discussion? More specifically, what compelled you to talk about leadership in contrast to the more analytical objection that I raised (skepticism towards the intended interpretation of the text)?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- zdragnar 1y ago
  > "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own particular obligation to the other. These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in parts. We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives. When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures. Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives, however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.
  - alganet 1y ago
    That's not the point. Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value? The answer is: I shouldn't.
    - zdragnar 1y ago
      Ah, if that's the case, then I suggest instead that (as we are in the age of AI) you should take absolutely nothing you see on the Internet at face value.
      - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
        i think that was fairly true even before AI. even before the internet.
alicemaz 1y ago
for me, the value of the xunzi isn't that it's old or that it's eastern, but that it's a sophisticated text which describes a system of morality, statecraft, and international relations which I largely (but don't entirely) agree with the period he came from was extremely intellectually fertile, and you can find advocates for everything from rational totalitarianism to postmodern anarchism, ethical egoism, hippie utilitarianism, and jeffersonian pastoralism. I think an "east vs west" lens doesn't really capture it well, because the codification of what we would consider "eastern" took place long after this period, over the course of many centuries there are things xunzi gets wrong, and after I finish writing commentaries on the essays by him I think are most important, I'll probably write a critique on that. I think of him more as a starting point than an ending point
- alganet 1y ago
  How do I even know if the blog post represents this Xunzi faithfully? I don't even know how to properly read the source material in chinese.
titanomachian 1y ago
[deleted]
- alganet 1y ago
  > should always be respect How do you know if you're being respectful to a culture you don't know? > Constant studying is the key, don’t you think? “Walk softly and carry a big book” If the Buddha thought books were the key, he would have left scripture. Also, if you meet the Buddha, kill him. I'm not buddhist by the way. I'm repeating old sayings that I believe are less prone to being charlatanized.
  - titanomachian 1y ago
    [deleted]
    - alganet 1y ago
      Knowledge can be a trap. Do I need this knowledge? I have a limited life. There's only so many books I can read. Why should I guide my attention using a random substack post?
      - titanomachian 1y ago
        It seems like I have offended you. Sorry, that wasn’t my intention. I’ll take down my messages as soon as I figure out how to.
        alganet 1y ago
        I'm not offended at all. Perhaps you have good intentions, but some people don't. Overselling material is typical of charlatans ("you should read more, and go through me to interpret it"). I'm just providing a general skeptical counterpoint to the idea that reading a lot is always good. Many have done that before me (Buddha, Schopenhauer, etc). It is kind of ironical that I'm name dropping old thinkers here, and providing my interpretation on how to read it. There's no way out of this paradox.
jhedwards 1y ago
I've read quite a bit of classical Chinese philosophy, and in my opinion that major piece that is directly translatable to Western concerns is the discussion of management principles. Confucian and legalist scholars recognized that statecraft was fundamentally a management problem, and they included a lot of wisdom about that sort of thing in their writings. This includes: - One of the most important jobs of a leader is to find the talented people and give them work worthy of their talents - Large projects start by laying a foundation which will facilitate later work - Resource and disaster management are central problems of government - If someone makes a bad decision, it is probably because they didn't see the value of the better decision. Instead of criticizing the path they chose, show them the superior value of the one they overlooked.
- alganet 1y ago
  We brazillians have a popular saying: "muito cacique pra pouco índio" (a rough translation would be "too many shamans for too few tribesmen"). It's used as a criticism when too many people want to be at the helm. I can related to that wisdom much more than I can relate to some old chinese (or old anything) text. I lived it, many times. Maybe there are some important leadership advice in the text. But should you really apply it in the 21st century?
  - whism 1y ago
    I think upon reflection you may discover that indeed many generations have _lived it_ many times before you as well
    - alganet 1y ago
      Nice, then I don't need the mysterious aesthetics of some old thinker to project wisdom. I can live by what relates to me in a more experience-oriented sense.
      - gerdesj 1y ago
        Yes - you be you!
rawgabbit 1y ago
“Ritual” is part of Xun Zi’s interpretation of Confucianism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher) Confucianism itself was attacked during the Cultural Revolution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Confucius https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Con... Now, it appears Confucianism is being pushed by the Chinese government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute
- alganet 1y ago
  Thanks for the interesting historical additions. I am not, however, approaching this from a political perspective. What I said applies to Indian, Japanese, Native American, even Abrahamic and possibly many others. All of these have been used in the past by charlatans of various kinds. The kinds of charlatans I'm referring to are not strictly political. Honestly, I was thinking of cheap cults and schemes (like I previously illustrated by my Häagen-Dazs comparison in another comment).
PaulHoule 1y ago
In the past you had organized shysters from India who took their business to the West like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat Today you have more interest in the literature of the East. I'm somewhat surprised at how little important Chinese literature is available in translation. In a time when many people are cut off from the ancient history of the West for various reasons (look at the 'bro veneration of Rome and the knee-jerk anti-Romanism it engenders) I think we need as large a cultural database to work from as we can get. Educated-but-ignorant progressives find most of the people who ever lived are dead to them because they don't accept 100% of the ideas that were fashionable in the last 30 seconds. Go to India and the sinosphere and they might find something that bypasses their defenses. Cultural conservatives need to realize they'll hit a ceiling so long as they remain stuck on a book that claims God made the world 6000 years ago (God is not great!) and cares about a few people on a postage stamp in the Middle East more than the rest of us -- Confucius could put them on a rational basis that people will listen to.
- cindyllm 1y ago
  God _is_ great. Time Cops, arrest this man!
- alganet 1y ago
  I'm like "don't buy snake oil" and people answer like "did you know oil does not mix with water? There is canola oil, and linseed oil, soy oil..." Sounds like you're actually trying to help the snake oil salesman to make his case. Sure, bro.
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    I'd rather be the guy who leaves offerings at his fox altar and gets trolled by CindyLLM for it than be the 'rationalist' who says they are an atheist but isn't. https://mastodon.social/@UP8/113975613016164927 https://mastodon.social/@UP8/113975613016164927
    - alganet 1y ago
toasterlovin 1y ago
> "it's old, and it's eastern" Somewhat of a tangent, but an interesting thought if one is inclined toward the old and Eastern: Christianity is old and Eastern. And yet you can find a Christian community practicing very ancient rituals right here in the United States. You can celebrate those rituals in English, or various ancient languages, or a combination of both. Rituals are available every day, but the most elaborate and meaningful ones are saved for the most convenient day of the week: Sunday.
- alicemaz 1y ago
  I actually have been going to church lately. I think the orthodox take on holy tradition comes very close to what xunzi means by ritual, but xunzi applies it to running a state as well
- alganet 1y ago
  What are you talking about, bro? What I said has nothing to do with old rituals, culture cross-polination or nothing of that.
  - toasterlovin 1y ago
    As I said: > Somewhat of a tangent I was just using your comment as a launching point for a thought I've had rattling around in my mind for a while. You mentioned some people having an inclination toward what is old and Eastern. That's the "somewhat" and the "tangent" is that I then connected that to people who apply the same heuristic to religion.

t-3 1y ago

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life". It's discussing an ideology for the ruling class, by the ruling class. The 0.01% and maybe people who aspire to join them are the only audience.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
alganet 1y ago
That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use. Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"? It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I said, by being old, and being eastern, and being philosophical, it suggests wisdom. It's like Häagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not. It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but people fell for it for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_bra...
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  > Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it. Is this a problem you have? You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” The best seem to be misguided, idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like counting.
  - alganet 1y ago
    > Is this a problem you have? Maybe I do to a certain level. It is an awareness of the environment in which I grew up. > You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar?
    - TimorousBestie 1y ago
      > Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds familiar? Clever rhetoric, but false.
      - alganet 1y ago
        Why is it false? Please focus on the context. We're discussing an ideological text for supposed aspiring leaders (the text self-describes as it, which I highlighted). What compelled you to criticize the ruling class in this discussion? More specifically, what compelled you to talk about leadership in contrast to the more analytical objection that I raised (skepticism towards the intended interpretation of the text)?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
zdragnar 1y ago
> "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own particular obligation to the other. These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in parts. We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives. When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures. Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives, however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.
- alganet 1y ago
  That's not the point. Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value? The answer is: I shouldn't.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
    Ah, if that's the case, then I suggest instead that (as we are in the age of AI) you should take absolutely nothing you see on the Internet at face value.
    - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
      i think that was fairly true even before AI. even before the internet.

alicemaz 1y ago

for me, the value of the xunzi isn't that it's old or that it's eastern, but that it's a sophisticated text which describes a system of morality, statecraft, and international relations which I largely (but don't entirely) agree with the period he came from was extremely intellectually fertile, and you can find advocates for everything from rational totalitarianism to postmodern anarchism, ethical egoism, hippie utilitarianism, and jeffersonian pastoralism. I think an "east vs west" lens doesn't really capture it well, because the codification of what we would consider "eastern" took place long after this period, over the course of many centuries there are things xunzi gets wrong, and after I finish writing commentaries on the essays by him I think are most important, I'll probably write a critique on that. I think of him more as a starting point than an ending point

alganet 1y ago
How do I even know if the blog post represents this Xunzi faithfully? I don't even know how to properly read the source material in chinese.

titanomachian 1y ago

[deleted]

alganet 1y ago
> should always be respect How do you know if you're being respectful to a culture you don't know? > Constant studying is the key, don’t you think? “Walk softly and carry a big book” If the Buddha thought books were the key, he would have left scripture. Also, if you meet the Buddha, kill him. I'm not buddhist by the way. I'm repeating old sayings that I believe are less prone to being charlatanized.
- titanomachian 1y ago
  [deleted]
  - alganet 1y ago
    Knowledge can be a trap. Do I need this knowledge? I have a limited life. There's only so many books I can read. Why should I guide my attention using a random substack post?
    - titanomachian 1y ago
      It seems like I have offended you. Sorry, that wasn’t my intention. I’ll take down my messages as soon as I figure out how to.
      - alganet 1y ago
        I'm not offended at all. Perhaps you have good intentions, but some people don't. Overselling material is typical of charlatans ("you should read more, and go through me to interpret it"). I'm just providing a general skeptical counterpoint to the idea that reading a lot is always good. Many have done that before me (Buddha, Schopenhauer, etc). It is kind of ironical that I'm name dropping old thinkers here, and providing my interpretation on how to read it. There's no way out of this paradox.

jhedwards 1y ago

I've read quite a bit of classical Chinese philosophy, and in my opinion that major piece that is directly translatable to Western concerns is the discussion of management principles. Confucian and legalist scholars recognized that statecraft was fundamentally a management problem, and they included a lot of wisdom about that sort of thing in their writings. This includes: - One of the most important jobs of a leader is to find the talented people and give them work worthy of their talents - Large projects start by laying a foundation which will facilitate later work - Resource and disaster management are central problems of government - If someone makes a bad decision, it is probably because they didn't see the value of the better decision. Instead of criticizing the path they chose, show them the superior value of the one they overlooked.

alganet 1y ago
We brazillians have a popular saying: "muito cacique pra pouco índio" (a rough translation would be "too many shamans for too few tribesmen"). It's used as a criticism when too many people want to be at the helm. I can related to that wisdom much more than I can relate to some old chinese (or old anything) text. I lived it, many times. Maybe there are some important leadership advice in the text. But should you really apply it in the 21st century?
- whism 1y ago
  I think upon reflection you may discover that indeed many generations have _lived it_ many times before you as well
  - alganet 1y ago
    Nice, then I don't need the mysterious aesthetics of some old thinker to project wisdom. I can live by what relates to me in a more experience-oriented sense.
    - gerdesj 1y ago
      Yes - you be you!

rawgabbit 1y ago

“Ritual” is part of Xun Zi’s interpretation of Confucianism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher) Confucianism itself was attacked during the Cultural Revolution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Confucius https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Con... Now, it appears Confucianism is being pushed by the Chinese government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute

alganet 1y ago
Thanks for the interesting historical additions. I am not, however, approaching this from a political perspective. What I said applies to Indian, Japanese, Native American, even Abrahamic and possibly many others. All of these have been used in the past by charlatans of various kinds. The kinds of charlatans I'm referring to are not strictly political. Honestly, I was thinking of cheap cults and schemes (like I previously illustrated by my Häagen-Dazs comparison in another comment).

PaulHoule 1y ago

In the past you had organized shysters from India who took their business to the West like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat Today you have more interest in the literature of the East. I'm somewhat surprised at how little important Chinese literature is available in translation. In a time when many people are cut off from the ancient history of the West for various reasons (look at the 'bro veneration of Rome and the knee-jerk anti-Romanism it engenders) I think we need as large a cultural database to work from as we can get. Educated-but-ignorant progressives find most of the people who ever lived are dead to them because they don't accept 100% of the ideas that were fashionable in the last 30 seconds. Go to India and the sinosphere and they might find something that bypasses their defenses. Cultural conservatives need to realize they'll hit a ceiling so long as they remain stuck on a book that claims God made the world 6000 years ago (God is not great!) and cares about a few people on a postage stamp in the Middle East more than the rest of us -- Confucius could put them on a rational basis that people will listen to.

cindyllm 1y ago
God _is_ great. Time Cops, arrest this man!
alganet 1y ago
I'm like "don't buy snake oil" and people answer like "did you know oil does not mix with water? There is canola oil, and linseed oil, soy oil..." Sounds like you're actually trying to help the snake oil salesman to make his case. Sure, bro.
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  I'd rather be the guy who leaves offerings at his fox altar and gets trolled by CindyLLM for it than be the 'rationalist' who says they are an atheist but isn't. https://mastodon.social/@UP8/113975613016164927 https://mastodon.social/@UP8/113975613016164927
  - alganet 1y ago

toasterlovin 1y ago

> "it's old, and it's eastern" Somewhat of a tangent, but an interesting thought if one is inclined toward the old and Eastern: Christianity is old and Eastern. And yet you can find a Christian community practicing very ancient rituals right here in the United States. You can celebrate those rituals in English, or various ancient languages, or a combination of both. Rituals are available every day, but the most elaborate and meaningful ones are saved for the most convenient day of the week: Sunday.

alicemaz 1y ago
I actually have been going to church lately. I think the orthodox take on holy tradition comes very close to what xunzi means by ritual, but xunzi applies it to running a state as well
alganet 1y ago
What are you talking about, bro? What I said has nothing to do with old rituals, culture cross-polination or nothing of that.
- toasterlovin 1y ago
  As I said: > Somewhat of a tangent I was just using your comment as a launching point for a thought I've had rattling around in my mind for a while. You mentioned some people having an inclination toward what is old and Eastern. That's the "somewhat" and the "tangent" is that I then connected that to people who apply the same heuristic to religion.