3 ms·

Haskell/GHC gets this right without any hand-wringing and about 3-4x the practical historical burden and without relying on the runtime. The Rust community is

Haskell/GHC gets this right without any hand-wringing and about 3-4x the practical historical burden and without relying on the runtime. The Rust community is very adamant as a general thing that "you're holding it wrong" when people complain about e.g. BDSM passing semantics, but it's also got REIR/RIIR, which is kinda like "you're holding it wrong" for programming. These two things together are a category error.

fn-mote 1y ago
By RIIR you mean “Rewrite it in Rust”? I looked it up because I was hoping to get something more substantive from the post, but that’s all I could find.
- benreesman 1y ago
  Yeah, or "Rewrite Everything in Rust". The degree of transparency you'll get on this varies between like Reddit and some Discord server, but it's fairly common knowledge that the Rust community leadership regards all other programming languages as existing in an adversarial, finite-sum outcome space with any remotely adjacent programming languages and regard it's elimination of other language use as a first-order good. Whether this is a first order good because Rust's choices about how to split the difference between C++ and Haskell are in fact the best future for software or because they make all the money from Rust jobs and books and teaching and shit is one of those assume good intentions by default but also pay attention to conflicts of interest scenarios. Speaking for myself I think most of the zeal is legitimate with a few people trying to cash in like you get with any community. But like all philosophies of the "There is One True Way, All Else Must Conform" stripe (in Christianity this is Opus Dei and things like that, in Islam it's called Takfir, it's not a new thing) it's misguided and destructive no matter how genuine the intentions of the hardliners. edit: people will try to say that I'm uniquely antagonistic to Rust, but I opened the meme bookmark tab for a diff and saw this within like two minutes of writing my comment, it's a known thing: https://impurepics.com/posts/2023-03-24-refactoring.html https://impurepics.com/posts/2023-03-24-refactoring.html
  - EnergyAmy 1y ago
    I think you have some unexplained baggage that you're bringing to the table. Consider re-examining your biases.
    - benreesman 1y ago
      I've got a trivially explained gripe with a Rust Evangelism Strike Force that is a meme, a byword on HN for gang-tackle brigade bullying: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178950 This pseudo-psychiatry "examine your personal issues" line of deflection can't go out of fashion too soon as far as I'm concerned. If you want to raise an objection to my analysis of the situation, raise a substantive objection, cite a counter example, propose a theory with more explanatory power, whatever. The thing I'm calling attention to has it's own meme page: https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rust-evangelism-strike-force/ https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rust-evangelism-strike-f... That's not a personal issue, that's a Rust community optics disaster.
  - estebank 1y ago
    > it's fairly common knowledge that the Rust community leadership regards all other programming languages as existing in an adversarial, finite-sum outcome space with any remotely adjacent programming languages and regard it's elimination of other language use as a first-order good. I call bullshit on this. If you can show any quote that could even be misconstrued as wanting some kind of language supremacy over every other from anyone in a position of "leadership", I'll eat my hat.
    - benreesman 1y ago
      It's got a subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/rustjerk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rustjerk/ There's an "internal" community document entitled "The Core Team Is Toxic": https://hackmd.io/@XAMPPRocky/r1HT-Z6_t https://hackmd.io/@XAMPPRocky/r1HT-Z6_t There's an entry on the tropes page about it: https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rewrite-in-rust/ https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rewrite-in-rust/ You're trying to make the case that this is a fever dream hallucinated by me in isolation? Like I took a bunch of fucking mescaline and imagined a world where the Rust community is actively trying to get things rewritten in Rust, get the DoD to mandate Rust for whole classes of taxpayer funded software, the groups at the FAANGs doing strategic rewrites of like revision control systems that worked fine, the whole thing? I just, made it up?

fn-mote 1y ago

By RIIR you mean “Rewrite it in Rust”? I looked it up because I was hoping to get something more substantive from the post, but that’s all I could find.

benreesman 1y ago
Yeah, or "Rewrite Everything in Rust". The degree of transparency you'll get on this varies between like Reddit and some Discord server, but it's fairly common knowledge that the Rust community leadership regards all other programming languages as existing in an adversarial, finite-sum outcome space with any remotely adjacent programming languages and regard it's elimination of other language use as a first-order good. Whether this is a first order good because Rust's choices about how to split the difference between C++ and Haskell are in fact the best future for software or because they make all the money from Rust jobs and books and teaching and shit is one of those assume good intentions by default but also pay attention to conflicts of interest scenarios. Speaking for myself I think most of the zeal is legitimate with a few people trying to cash in like you get with any community. But like all philosophies of the "There is One True Way, All Else Must Conform" stripe (in Christianity this is Opus Dei and things like that, in Islam it's called Takfir, it's not a new thing) it's misguided and destructive no matter how genuine the intentions of the hardliners. edit: people will try to say that I'm uniquely antagonistic to Rust, but I opened the meme bookmark tab for a diff and saw this within like two minutes of writing my comment, it's a known thing: https://impurepics.com/posts/2023-03-24-refactoring.html https://impurepics.com/posts/2023-03-24-refactoring.html
- EnergyAmy 1y ago
  I think you have some unexplained baggage that you're bringing to the table. Consider re-examining your biases.
  - benreesman 1y ago
    I've got a trivially explained gripe with a Rust Evangelism Strike Force that is a meme, a byword on HN for gang-tackle brigade bullying: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178950 This pseudo-psychiatry "examine your personal issues" line of deflection can't go out of fashion too soon as far as I'm concerned. If you want to raise an objection to my analysis of the situation, raise a substantive objection, cite a counter example, propose a theory with more explanatory power, whatever. The thing I'm calling attention to has it's own meme page: https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rust-evangelism-strike-force/ https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rust-evangelism-strike-f... That's not a personal issue, that's a Rust community optics disaster.
- estebank 1y ago
  > it's fairly common knowledge that the Rust community leadership regards all other programming languages as existing in an adversarial, finite-sum outcome space with any remotely adjacent programming languages and regard it's elimination of other language use as a first-order good. I call bullshit on this. If you can show any quote that could even be misconstrued as wanting some kind of language supremacy over every other from anyone in a position of "leadership", I'll eat my hat.
  - benreesman 1y ago
    It's got a subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/rustjerk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rustjerk/ There's an "internal" community document entitled "The Core Team Is Toxic": https://hackmd.io/@XAMPPRocky/r1HT-Z6_t https://hackmd.io/@XAMPPRocky/r1HT-Z6_t There's an entry on the tropes page about it: https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rewrite-in-rust/ https://enet4.github.io/rust-tropes/rewrite-in-rust/ You're trying to make the case that this is a fever dream hallucinated by me in isolation? Like I took a bunch of fucking mescaline and imagined a world where the Rust community is actively trying to get things rewritten in Rust, get the DoD to mandate Rust for whole classes of taxpayer funded software, the groups at the FAANGs doing strategic rewrites of like revision control systems that worked fine, the whole thing? I just, made it up?