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> try finding a new car of any kind in the United States for $15,000.) > This is because nobody would buy it. People signal wealth, status, and even personal v

> try finding a new car of any kind in the United States for $15,000.) > This is because nobody would buy it. People signal wealth, status, and even personal values by way of their vehicle in the US. Speak for yourself. There are a ton of people who probably make a lot less money than you or I, who would purchase it, where transportation is more important than status. "It's one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?"

alexjplant 1y ago
I don't even own a car but probably would buy one that cheap. The problem is that we're on Hacker News and aren't representative of the general car buying populace. Many people spend more than 50% of their gross salary on cars because it makes them happy. Manufacturers are giving the public what they want and what people want is bigger cars with more amenities, hence the change in price [1]. Also, as somebody else pointed out, if you value transportation more than signaling then you buy used. > "It's one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?" I didn't buy a new car until I was well into my 20s and have driven multiple vehicles that were worth no more than their scrap value. That line would probably work better on somebody else, that is, somebody that hasn't apprehensively poured K-Seal into their leaking radiator when they had $600 in their checking account. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-no-longer-afford-their-cars-1859929 https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-no-longer-afford-thei...
- bluGill 1y ago
  Why buy a basic cheap car when you can get a not very old luxury car for the same price?
  - RandomBacon 1y ago
    Because it's probably going to be a lot cheaper to fix basic cars than luxury brand cars (part costs, availability of mechanics that work on those cars)
  - Glyptodon 1y ago
    Is there a used luxury model that you can highlight a low TCO for? IE < $20k, won't gulp gas, won't need to see the mechanic except for regular oil change type stuff, won't cost arm and a leg if you do need repairs? Or a $20-$25k used model that will compare favorably to something like a new Corolla? Can't tell if I'm missing something or not, but I've never seriously thought that some random used BMW would seriously be cheaper to operate than a boring car unless cars were my hobby.
    - dzonga 1y ago
      a used lexus. but there's a premium for used lexuses. but they still go on forever with little maintenance i.e just oil change. e.g https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/JTHAA1D2XM5117028/2021-lexus-is/?position=0&returnTo=%2Fused-cars-for-sale%2Flistings%2Flexus%2Fis%2F&sourceType=marketplace&sponsored=true https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/JTHAA1D2X...
      - Glyptodon 1y ago
        Interesting - just a cursory search but it looks like excepting two listings almost every used Lexus > 2019 model year in my area is above $29k, and mostly > $30k. What is going to be noticeably better from a Lexus like this as compared to a new Corolla? (Like I don't doubt that they're nicer, but is it just less obviously plastic and more faux leather?)
- Glyptodon 1y ago
  I hate dealing with cars and I hate status signalling, and car maintainence, and buying used and buying new are both miserable IMO, and don't have a clear front runner for comfortable low risk purchase that doesn't look like it's way too expensive (anchored by my concept of what cars should cost relative to median income). My current >13 year old purchased new car has done better than my previous used car. But it's probably not because it was new, so much as because my previous Used car had high mileage and succumbed to the environment. And buying new felt super weird. But now I look at the market and no matter which you buy it seems miserable.
zamadatix 1y ago
If you didn't care about status signaling you typically skipped the "new" label (which loses you tons of value right at signing) and bought used-whatever-the-rich-people-were-buying-but-upgraded-from. Well that or "4th hand... but still runs!", depending exactly how much you had and how little you cared. Though that got a bit screwy with the prices during COVID which is when I switched to new myself (well, that and a >10x increase in yearly salary in that time made getting anything at that time feasible). Things seem to be getting back to a more reasonable place at least now, though still a tad high. The typical calculus will probably get a bit screwy again if electric cars keep on pace combined with the US focusing electric on the high end with 30k being the dream price reduction goal.
- aaomidi 1y ago
  Buying used is genuinely a pain in the ass.
- dqv 1y ago
  > If you didn't care about status signaling you typically skipped the "new" label (which loses you tons of value right at signing) and bought used-whatever-the-rich-people-were-buying-but-upgraded-from. This is describing a specific kind of person and it is not a general rule, at least not for the last 30 years. I would be surprised if it even applied to a plurality of people, but this all comes down to anecdotes anyway. The narrow examples I can think of are vehicles and, to a lesser extent, game systems. But anyone I knew who wanted to know the time would just buy a $20 Casio watch and, in that same vein, would buy whatever product is the equivalent of a $20 Casio watch in that particular product category. Buying used anything is pretty time consuming (unless you do no research and just pick the first thing you see) and a lot of people want(ed) to save their money by saving their time (time is money as they say) buying a reasonably-priced new product.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- Glyptodon 1y ago
  For my entire post college life (think financial crisis +) the difference in price between new and used cars has been inconsistent, erratic, and extremely hard to evaluate. While it's true that cars eventually depreciate enough to be cheaper, I have 2012 model year that's probably worth < 20% of what it was new even with reasonable mileage, when I look at used cars less than 5 years old and without a ton of miles, most models that are considered reliable or remotely popular seem to sell above 80% of new model sticker price, and often are marked at or above new sticker at car lots. Choosing between, say a new Coralla vs. a used Camry seems far removed from what I remember in my youth, which is that for model pairings like that maybe your new vs used model overlap would be another mark or maaaybe something like a Yaris, and you'd be like "buying new is for rubes." But today, you have to spend several days of part time work to figure out something like "a new model a, or b, in price range x or a used model c or d with sub n miles in price range z will have similar TCO, let's see what's out there..." I think there's a reason that that Slate truck seems interesting to some people, and why people think stuff like the Maverick that has gone from a reasonable deal to a questionable one but still remains popular. That said, I think it's true that most new car buyers are mostly buying expensive cars and that there aren't many cheaper cars despite evidence that they'd sell. So what I'm curious about is that means 5 years from now people will have to sell them at an increased rate of depreciation or they'll just keep them longer. In the worst case this seems on the verge of cars being driven out of middle class hands (or houses going from two car to one car) if the median income relative to average car price grows more.

alexjplant 1y ago

I don't even own a car but probably would buy one that cheap. The problem is that we're on Hacker News and aren't representative of the general car buying populace. Many people spend more than 50% of their gross salary on cars because it makes them happy. Manufacturers are giving the public what they want and what people want is bigger cars with more amenities, hence the change in price [1]. Also, as somebody else pointed out, if you value transportation more than signaling then you buy used. > "It's one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?" I didn't buy a new car until I was well into my 20s and have driven multiple vehicles that were worth no more than their scrap value. That line would probably work better on somebody else, that is, somebody that hasn't apprehensively poured K-Seal into their leaking radiator when they had $600 in their checking account. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-no-longer-afford-their-cars-1859929 https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-no-longer-afford-thei...

bluGill 1y ago
Why buy a basic cheap car when you can get a not very old luxury car for the same price?
- RandomBacon 1y ago
  Because it's probably going to be a lot cheaper to fix basic cars than luxury brand cars (part costs, availability of mechanics that work on those cars)
- Glyptodon 1y ago
  Is there a used luxury model that you can highlight a low TCO for? IE < $20k, won't gulp gas, won't need to see the mechanic except for regular oil change type stuff, won't cost arm and a leg if you do need repairs? Or a $20-$25k used model that will compare favorably to something like a new Corolla? Can't tell if I'm missing something or not, but I've never seriously thought that some random used BMW would seriously be cheaper to operate than a boring car unless cars were my hobby.
  - dzonga 1y ago
    a used lexus. but there's a premium for used lexuses. but they still go on forever with little maintenance i.e just oil change. e.g https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/JTHAA1D2XM5117028/2021-lexus-is/?position=0&returnTo=%2Fused-cars-for-sale%2Flistings%2Flexus%2Fis%2F&sourceType=marketplace&sponsored=true https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/JTHAA1D2X...
    - Glyptodon 1y ago
      Interesting - just a cursory search but it looks like excepting two listings almost every used Lexus > 2019 model year in my area is above $29k, and mostly > $30k. What is going to be noticeably better from a Lexus like this as compared to a new Corolla? (Like I don't doubt that they're nicer, but is it just less obviously plastic and more faux leather?)
Glyptodon 1y ago
I hate dealing with cars and I hate status signalling, and car maintainence, and buying used and buying new are both miserable IMO, and don't have a clear front runner for comfortable low risk purchase that doesn't look like it's way too expensive (anchored by my concept of what cars should cost relative to median income). My current >13 year old purchased new car has done better than my previous used car. But it's probably not because it was new, so much as because my previous Used car had high mileage and succumbed to the environment. And buying new felt super weird. But now I look at the market and no matter which you buy it seems miserable.

zamadatix 1y ago

If you didn't care about status signaling you typically skipped the "new" label (which loses you tons of value right at signing) and bought used-whatever-the-rich-people-were-buying-but-upgraded-from. Well that or "4th hand... but still runs!", depending exactly how much you had and how little you cared. Though that got a bit screwy with the prices during COVID which is when I switched to new myself (well, that and a >10x increase in yearly salary in that time made getting anything at that time feasible). Things seem to be getting back to a more reasonable place at least now, though still a tad high. The typical calculus will probably get a bit screwy again if electric cars keep on pace combined with the US focusing electric on the high end with 30k being the dream price reduction goal.

aaomidi 1y ago
Buying used is genuinely a pain in the ass.
dqv 1y ago
> If you didn't care about status signaling you typically skipped the "new" label (which loses you tons of value right at signing) and bought used-whatever-the-rich-people-were-buying-but-upgraded-from. This is describing a specific kind of person and it is not a general rule, at least not for the last 30 years. I would be surprised if it even applied to a plurality of people, but this all comes down to anecdotes anyway. The narrow examples I can think of are vehicles and, to a lesser extent, game systems. But anyone I knew who wanted to know the time would just buy a $20 Casio watch and, in that same vein, would buy whatever product is the equivalent of a $20 Casio watch in that particular product category. Buying used anything is pretty time consuming (unless you do no research and just pick the first thing you see) and a lot of people want(ed) to save their money by saving their time (time is money as they say) buying a reasonably-priced new product.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
Glyptodon 1y ago
For my entire post college life (think financial crisis +) the difference in price between new and used cars has been inconsistent, erratic, and extremely hard to evaluate. While it's true that cars eventually depreciate enough to be cheaper, I have 2012 model year that's probably worth < 20% of what it was new even with reasonable mileage, when I look at used cars less than 5 years old and without a ton of miles, most models that are considered reliable or remotely popular seem to sell above 80% of new model sticker price, and often are marked at or above new sticker at car lots. Choosing between, say a new Coralla vs. a used Camry seems far removed from what I remember in my youth, which is that for model pairings like that maybe your new vs used model overlap would be another mark or maaaybe something like a Yaris, and you'd be like "buying new is for rubes." But today, you have to spend several days of part time work to figure out something like "a new model a, or b, in price range x or a used model c or d with sub n miles in price range z will have similar TCO, let's see what's out there..." I think there's a reason that that Slate truck seems interesting to some people, and why people think stuff like the Maverick that has gone from a reasonable deal to a questionable one but still remains popular. That said, I think it's true that most new car buyers are mostly buying expensive cars and that there aren't many cheaper cars despite evidence that they'd sell. So what I'm curious about is that means 5 years from now people will have to sell them at an increased rate of depreciation or they'll just keep them longer. In the worst case this seems on the verge of cars being driven out of middle class hands (or houses going from two car to one car) if the median income relative to average car price grows more.