3 ms·

Yep, just like tritones in music, there is a place for passive voice in writing. But also like tritones, the best general advice is that they should be avoided.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kragen 1y ago
That doesn't make sense. It's like saying that the best general advice about which way to turn when you're driving is to turn right. From your comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44493308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44493308, and from the fact that you used the passive voice in your comment ("they should be avoided") apparently without noticing, it appears that the reason you have this opinion is that you don't know what the passive voice is in the first place.
- CrazyStat 1y ago
  I can’t find it, but I remember reading an article a year or two ago with an analysis showing some of the most vocal critics of the passive voice used the passive voice more often than most of their contemporary writers.
  - kragen 1y ago
    Probably http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.h..., giving specific statistics on Orwell and on Strunk & White, linked from https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922.
    - CrazyStat 1y ago
      Thank you!
      - kragen 1y ago
        Happy to help!
  - mikanystrom 1y ago
    I'm extremely critical of how people use hyphens. Partly because I'm a heavy hyphen-user myself!
- dmoy 1y ago
  > the best general advice about which way to turn At the risk of derailing into insane pedantry land, this part is kinda true, so maybe not the best analogy? From routing efficiency: https://www.ge.com/news/reports/ups-drivers-dont-turn-left-probably-shouldnt-either https://www.ge.com/news/reports/ups-drivers-dont-turn-left-p... And also safety: https://www.phly.com/rms/blog/turning-left-at-an-intersection.aspx https://www.phly.com/rms/blog/turning-left-at-an-intersectio...
  - kragen 1y ago
    If you always turn right at every intersection, you will just go around and around the same block. Which way you should turn depends on where you want to go.
    - cgriswald 1y ago
      You didn’t originally say anything about always turning right at every intersection and neither did the GP. I had the same two thoughts as GP when I read your analogy.
    - diffeomorphism 1y ago
      No. That is what roundabouts, curved roads etc are for. Left turns are generally more problematic due to crossing incoming traffic etc.. Hence planning avoids them for good reason and there are much more right turns.
    - dmoy 1y ago
      Right (ha), but that's kinda how one can approach passive voice too? If you never use passive voice, you will be unable to emphasize the object of the sentence in cases where it might actually be necessary, and end up requiring more words to get the same effect. If you never make left turns, you end up having to go past one block and make three right turns. So even though best practices might be to avoid passive language for various reasons, sometimes it is cleaner. And even though best practices are to avoid left turns (for efficiency, safety, etc), sometimes it's worth it to just take the left turn. So even UPS trucks will make left turns, just not nearly as often.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

kragen 1y ago

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying that the best general advice about which way to turn when you're driving is to turn right. From your comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44493308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44493308, and from the fact that you used the passive voice in your comment ("they should be avoided") apparently without noticing, it appears that the reason you have this opinion is that you don't know what the passive voice is in the first place.

CrazyStat 1y ago
I can’t find it, but I remember reading an article a year or two ago with an analysis showing some of the most vocal critics of the passive voice used the passive voice more often than most of their contemporary writers.
- kragen 1y ago
  Probably http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.h..., giving specific statistics on Orwell and on Strunk & White, linked from https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922.
  - CrazyStat 1y ago
    Thank you!
    - kragen 1y ago
      Happy to help!
- mikanystrom 1y ago
  I'm extremely critical of how people use hyphens. Partly because I'm a heavy hyphen-user myself!
dmoy 1y ago
> the best general advice about which way to turn At the risk of derailing into insane pedantry land, this part is kinda true, so maybe not the best analogy? From routing efficiency: https://www.ge.com/news/reports/ups-drivers-dont-turn-left-probably-shouldnt-either https://www.ge.com/news/reports/ups-drivers-dont-turn-left-p... And also safety: https://www.phly.com/rms/blog/turning-left-at-an-intersection.aspx https://www.phly.com/rms/blog/turning-left-at-an-intersectio...
- kragen 1y ago
  If you always turn right at every intersection, you will just go around and around the same block. Which way you should turn depends on where you want to go.
  - cgriswald 1y ago
    You didn’t originally say anything about always turning right at every intersection and neither did the GP. I had the same two thoughts as GP when I read your analogy.
  - diffeomorphism 1y ago
    No. That is what roundabouts, curved roads etc are for. Left turns are generally more problematic due to crossing incoming traffic etc.. Hence planning avoids them for good reason and there are much more right turns.
  - dmoy 1y ago
    Right (ha), but that's kinda how one can approach passive voice too? If you never use passive voice, you will be unable to emphasize the object of the sentence in cases where it might actually be necessary, and end up requiring more words to get the same effect. If you never make left turns, you end up having to go past one block and make three right turns. So even though best practices might be to avoid passive language for various reasons, sometimes it is cleaner. And even though best practices are to avoid left turns (for efficiency, safety, etc), sometimes it's worth it to just take the left turn. So even UPS trucks will make left turns, just not nearly as often.