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The problem is that you can't always tell that there are no pedestrians or crossing traffic unless you take enough time to come to a complete stop. There are pl

The problem is that you can't always tell that there are no pedestrians or crossing traffic unless you take enough time to come to a complete stop. There are plenty of stop signs where that's not true, but also plenty where it is, and it's not always clear which one it is to the driver. I think the right fix here isn't total enforcement nor relaxed enforcement, but relaxed signage. If sight lines are good enough that it's safe to roll through, that should be a yield, not a stop. Stop should mean, you actually need to come to a complete stop to safely navigate this intersection. Then you can enforce it without qualms.

ygjb 1y ago
Signage is ineffective in addressing short term environmental or visibility impacts. Sure, it might be easy to see during the day with clear visibility. What about at night? Fog? Snow or rainstorm that is restricting visibility? Some dropped a storage pod on the road that obstructs the view of everything except a yield sign?
- BobaFloutist 1y ago
  Those limitations aren't restricted to intersections, if someone doesn't know how to safely drive in fog they'll be just as unsafe the rest of the time as when approaching an intersection with a yield instead of a stop sign.
sorcerer-mar 1y ago
> If sight lines are good enough that it's safe to roll through, that should be a yield, not a stop They are
- wat10000 1y ago
  Definitely not, there are tons of stop signs in places with low speeds and great sight lines that are perfectly safe to treat as a yield. And conversely, there are occasionally some interesting places (on-ramps for very old freeways) that have a yield where it's not safe to proceed without stopping first.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    I would bet on traffic planners’ assessment of these variables to be more reliable and comprehensive than yours, in general.
    - wat10000 1y ago
      Spoken like someone who has never driven a car.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Nah, spoken like someone repeatedly humbled by the complexity and detail of domains other than my own. “I can drive a car therefore I understand traffic design better than traffic designers” is obviously an absurd statement when you just say it outright instead of condescendingly implying it. > HN commentator revolutionizes traffic design with groundbreaking insight: consider the sight lines
        wat10000 1y ago
        I doubt anyone is even analyzing most of these intersections. Low-traffic residential streets just automatically get a stop sign regardless.
        8note 1y ago
        you can also be humbled by how little thought goes into a lot of car infrastructure. eg. rather than picking a speed limit, and building the road to encourage that speed limit, american engineers will build the road, then set the speed limit by how fast people typically drive on it
        wat10000 1y ago
        Pretty sure it doesn't even go that far most of the time. Around here, there seem to be a few simple rules based on the road's intended use and the area it's in. Lower-traffic residential streets are 25MPH, as are somewhat busier streets in dense areas. Other roads that connect more distant places are 35MPH. And that's about it. One road I frequent has a broad section with parking on both sides, one lane in each direction that would be plenty wide enough for two cars abreast, and a center turn lane. And then there's a narrow section barely wide enough for one lane in each direction, with densely packed houses whose driveways connect straight to the road, and a hill that sharply limits visibility. People tend to go 25MPH in that section and 40+ on the wide section. The limit in both places is 35. About two miles away there's a major connector with 3-4 lanes each way, divided by a median. People often go 50 there. The limit is, you guessed it, 35.
SoftTalker 1y ago
Good point, another thing that the EU tends to do differently from the US. US rarely uses "Yield." The only places I generally see it are at roundabout entries. Often on EU roads they will use "sharks teeth" yeild markers where a side road enters or crosses a main road. The requirement there is essentially "proceed if clear" a full stop is not required. I have rarely (maybe never) seen a US-style 4-way stop there (my experience is limited to Scandinavia and Germany).
- Xss3 1y ago
  In the UK, driving a decade all over, never seen a 4 way stop.

ygjb 1y ago

Signage is ineffective in addressing short term environmental or visibility impacts. Sure, it might be easy to see during the day with clear visibility. What about at night? Fog? Snow or rainstorm that is restricting visibility? Some dropped a storage pod on the road that obstructs the view of everything except a yield sign?

BobaFloutist 1y ago
Those limitations aren't restricted to intersections, if someone doesn't know how to safely drive in fog they'll be just as unsafe the rest of the time as when approaching an intersection with a yield instead of a stop sign.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

> If sight lines are good enough that it's safe to roll through, that should be a yield, not a stop They are

wat10000 1y ago
Definitely not, there are tons of stop signs in places with low speeds and great sight lines that are perfectly safe to treat as a yield. And conversely, there are occasionally some interesting places (on-ramps for very old freeways) that have a yield where it's not safe to proceed without stopping first.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  I would bet on traffic planners’ assessment of these variables to be more reliable and comprehensive than yours, in general.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    Spoken like someone who has never driven a car.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Nah, spoken like someone repeatedly humbled by the complexity and detail of domains other than my own. “I can drive a car therefore I understand traffic design better than traffic designers” is obviously an absurd statement when you just say it outright instead of condescendingly implying it. > HN commentator revolutionizes traffic design with groundbreaking insight: consider the sight lines
      - wat10000 1y ago
        I doubt anyone is even analyzing most of these intersections. Low-traffic residential streets just automatically get a stop sign regardless.
      - 8note 1y ago
        you can also be humbled by how little thought goes into a lot of car infrastructure. eg. rather than picking a speed limit, and building the road to encourage that speed limit, american engineers will build the road, then set the speed limit by how fast people typically drive on it
        wat10000 1y ago
        Pretty sure it doesn't even go that far most of the time. Around here, there seem to be a few simple rules based on the road's intended use and the area it's in. Lower-traffic residential streets are 25MPH, as are somewhat busier streets in dense areas. Other roads that connect more distant places are 35MPH. And that's about it. One road I frequent has a broad section with parking on both sides, one lane in each direction that would be plenty wide enough for two cars abreast, and a center turn lane. And then there's a narrow section barely wide enough for one lane in each direction, with densely packed houses whose driveways connect straight to the road, and a hill that sharply limits visibility. People tend to go 25MPH in that section and 40+ on the wide section. The limit in both places is 35. About two miles away there's a major connector with 3-4 lanes each way, divided by a median. People often go 50 there. The limit is, you guessed it, 35.

SoftTalker 1y ago

Good point, another thing that the EU tends to do differently from the US. US rarely uses "Yield." The only places I generally see it are at roundabout entries. Often on EU roads they will use "sharks teeth" yeild markers where a side road enters or crosses a main road. The requirement there is essentially "proceed if clear" a full stop is not required. I have rarely (maybe never) seen a US-style 4-way stop there (my experience is limited to Scandinavia and Germany).

Xss3 1y ago
In the UK, driving a decade all over, never seen a 4 way stop.