4 ms·

Aha, so Aristotle would say high-D types have an excess of prudence (or at least phronesis, in the sense of knowing how to turn affairs to one's own advantage)

Aha, so Aristotle would say high-D types have an excess of prudence (or at least phronesis, in the sense of knowing how to turn affairs to one's own advantage) as well as a deficiency of justice?

PaulHoule 1y ago
Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics Not all researchers in that field would 100% agree but I see D as the old dark triad (Narcissism, Machiavellianism, Psychopathy) plus Sadism which is conspicuously absent from the triad. My own take is that the modern moral rot is founded in Narcissism as described in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism which was thought to be about the 1970s when it came out but actually talks about longer term trends that have been tracked to the 18th century in the US, Tokugawa Japan and ancient Rome. Psychologists see Narcissism as an underdevelopment of the personality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Analysis_of_the_Self https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Analysis_of_the_Self https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/kernbergs-borderline-conditions-and-pathological-narcissism https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/kernbergs-borderline-c... so it's not like a High D person is a Low D person that went bad, but rather a High D doesn't have a lot of insight into how Low D people work. In a Low D culture a High D person might be forced to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing" but a silver lining to being in a culture that celebrates High D is that High D people are proud to fly their flag. When I was a hungry college student I thought "gee Charles Manson was good at picking up chicks"; today I realize that Charles Mason was good at picking up murderous chicks. That is, High D people aren't good at ripping off or seducing low D people, they're good at ripping off and seducing other High D people. See https://leverage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Con https://leverage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Con and "You can't cheat an honest man".
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  Perfect time to have committed the (light) cavalry! ) I've been struggling to relocate some old convos so full responses will take some time :( So here I trade prudence for urgency :) >The_Long_Con I expect to find discussions of (at least) 2 time-scales there :) (OT? Note that "prudence" morphed into "prude" (=prig) ... Only if you care to bite this "Calvinist" bait!) >plus Sadism Have to also revisit old Convo about "more cruelty than [absolutely?] necessary" VS psychopaths extracting benefits from win-win games While looking for DISC numbers for Taiwan vs China (& similar studies comparing states of (Maha)Bharat) https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/14/2613 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/14/2613 >In other words, only by enhancing the competitiveness of individuals in the job market and acquiring problem-solving skills, can they enhance their psychological satisfaction. Reminds me of Thiel's cooperate internally, compete externally. (? Generalizing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_type...) I'm vibing that rightwingers prefer streaming because of the compressed time scales, while lefties prefer blogs because the game becomes more "iterated".. this "explains" (institution-supported) percolation of lefty narcissists attempting to cross timescales? >I'd wish the losers could become psychopaths by having [per Aristotle... or Jefferson] some business *of their own* which they could mind. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42254503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42254503) Been mulling this (emphasis mine) as well.. that comment sounds now like giving GenA/Z Psycho-Ed (like Sex-Ed but not conducted by prigs) Secondarily, their savings rate is not going where Thiel expects, which means one's gotta encourage them to redirect these savings to bootstrap their businesses Psycho-Ed -> Psycho'ed (=purely motivational) venkatrao had a post teasing motivation vs meaning -- also 2 time-scales https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/be-history-or-do-history#:~:text=Most%20people%20do%20not%20want%20their%20sense%20of%20history%20to%20be%20true%2C%20they%20want%20it%20to%20be%20meaningful%20and%20motivating.%20Unfortunately%2C%20it%E2%80%99s%20hard%20to%20get%20both%20at%20once. https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/be-history-or-do-his... Reflexively, I'd guess that GenAZ can break the cycle because they can (potentially) get a more accurate sense of history than millennials. (Worse state capacity for formal education can help?) You'd want to look at ethnocultural crossovers in NYC (it looks promising that ICE is targeting Turkish agitators, because among frenemy immigrants, their polarization entropy most closely approximates that of the host nation-- ime) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42956827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42956827 [Only]>good at ripping off and seducing other High D people. Thus suggesting that both sama & YC are high-D :) One would have to shake-off accusations of envy from the narcissists/prigs, if one weren't cool enough Update: before today I was thinking that, unlike the further left, right+center+epsilon have always been able to coalesce around the very reasonable idea that institutions are fundamentally good (compared to the leftist version for individuals) but Paul's subaltern comment makes me wonder also about timescales with respect to genz/a building their own alt (LOW-KEY) institutions Lagniappe https://youtu.be/qvdt2FZ0_B8 https://youtu.be/qvdt2FZ0_B8 (Outcool'd Jeff goldblum from Jurassic park lol) Okay over and out no more edits
  - 082349872349872 1y ago
    Aha, I'd originally confused your D with the DISC Directness. Paul's subaltern comment reminded me strongly of "Life of Brian": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4&t=92s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4&t=92s Re: Rao, I found that I had to deliberately read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization in small chunks with large breaks, because otherwise it all blurs together in terms of being a bunch of h saps being awful to each other. More specifically to his introduction, one can see big differences in the "tournament" between say 1250 and 1500: over that period they go from being a sort of open wargame with a racing-for-pinkslips feel played over the several km of hill and dale between villages, to a sport played in an enclosed pitch in front of an audience, limited to vetted entrants with the appropriate gear.
    - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
      No (or yes..?) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44477779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44477779 Those 2 sets of aggregated data seem to correlate (cross-validate?), but I haven't checked numerically, hoped for some input from Paul first So far, his website link seems VERY sus :) narcissists/sadists are forced (try?) to be indirect, *but* also fair worse in "high-context", does that mechanism make sense? (Come to think of it, Ireland makes sense now-- that HN post of sick graph pairs also comes to mind) So-- you might disagree-- that's something [not puppy-/goldfish-like] that I am alright with leaving in the centrifuge (for) now ;)
      - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
        Lagniappe https://youtu.be/gNn9NxZH2Vo https://youtu.be/gNn9NxZH2Vo >This is an anime ... with [legendary] Chinese [hero]... and ... a Hungarian song as the intro
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        1y ago
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/01/19/reviews/970119.19delbant.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/01/19/r... >In defending this ''union of desire and esteem,'' Lasch reveals himself as a true puritan -- not in the pejorative sense of being prudish, but in the sense of believing that good societies (on the small scale of families and the large scale of political communities) can be sustained only if desire is sanctified by respect. This is why the New England Puritans (to whom Lasch grew increasingly sympathetic as he grew older) thought of marriage as a ''miniature commonwealth,'' a model for human relations in which appetite and obligations are held in delicate balance. Lasch agrees, which is why he may be fairly described as an economic liberal and a cultural conservative -- a liberal who thinks that humane societies must curb excesses of wealth and poverty, a conservative who thinks that individual members of such societies should be held accountable to a standard of personal responsibility. Emphasis mine: Edwardian Liberal But also: "The feminist movement,..., far from civilizing corporate capitalism, has been corrupted by it. It has adopted mercantile habits of thought as its own.
  - 082349872349872 1y ago
    alternative sol'n: bring on the Centrifugal Bumble Puppy parks; who needs actual progress as long as it's possible to sustain the illusion :-) (come to think of it, evaluating "progress" requires the ability to compare across longer timescales, so the goldfish* of the Brave New World need not even have the illusion, because they never reflect) * would an Edwardian complain that our recent discovery of "Goldfish with PhD's" has created entities which can expound upon the meaning of everything but the value of nothing?
    - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
      Oh no, the cavalry scared off Paul I think :( some times I can't even begin parsing what you mean :) it scares me a little, but also thrilling-- like very very abstract BDSM? Hope that's reciprocal :) Which means: I see value in your (rhetorical?) questions.. because .. I still sense deep unease? (Pardon the manic schizo) Like you always say, & I try to hold to heart: a problem worth its salt must bite back. You nibbled, but confronting the nature of (emergent society-wide) "sadism"(?) that is still somehow also seductive (to the most based of "us", I imagine), that's putting 1's head in the lion's jaw? Abstract, but feels very real<=>live Swiss style mil exercise? https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/paying-schoolgirls-to-have-babies-russia-gives-financial-incentives-for-teen-mothers-part-of-worldwide-trend/articleshow/122265741.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/paying-scho... In short, let's hasten slowly, so that we can one day put 3's and hope that'll choke the lion for a bit.. meanwhile shall we concentrate these dangerous thoughts on the periphery of our minds? (Ie centrifuge) Paul mentioned pornography elsewhere.. he has a far less sophomoric style imho (being fullish time father of real boy explains it for me*) than either of us? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44492326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44492326 *so, not quite sabra as Joseph https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d601f74ae9201df318403b8c7e25b32/8df80a8c15078c25-5b/s1280x1920/9ea757024b35e42b365be653e70f8ac681071f30.jpg https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d601f74ae9201df318403b8c7e25b32... But I also don't see myself as the kid in that pic, more as the memeshirt, or beer, or daisies ;)

Aha, so Aristotle would say high-D types have an excess of prudence (or at least phronesis, in the sense of knowing how to turn affairs to one's own advantage) as well as a deficiency of justice?

PaulHoule 1y ago

Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics Not all researchers in that field would 100% agree but I see D as the old dark triad (Narcissism, Machiavellianism, Psychopathy) plus Sadism which is conspicuously absent from the triad. My own take is that the modern moral rot is founded in Narcissism as described in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism which was thought to be about the 1970s when it came out but actually talks about longer term trends that have been tracked to the 18th century in the US, Tokugawa Japan and ancient Rome. Psychologists see Narcissism as an underdevelopment of the personality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Analysis_of_the_Self https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Analysis_of_the_Self https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/kernbergs-borderline-conditions-and-pathological-narcissism https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/kernbergs-borderline-c... so it's not like a High D person is a Low D person that went bad, but rather a High D doesn't have a lot of insight into how Low D people work. In a Low D culture a High D person might be forced to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing" but a silver lining to being in a culture that celebrates High D is that High D people are proud to fly their flag. When I was a hungry college student I thought "gee Charles Manson was good at picking up chicks"; today I realize that Charles Mason was good at picking up murderous chicks. That is, High D people aren't good at ripping off or seducing low D people, they're good at ripping off and seducing other High D people. See https://leverage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Con https://leverage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Con and "You can't cheat an honest man".

gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
Perfect time to have committed the (light) cavalry! ) I've been struggling to relocate some old convos so full responses will take some time :( So here I trade prudence for urgency :) >The_Long_Con I expect to find discussions of (at least) 2 time-scales there :) (OT? Note that "prudence" morphed into "prude" (=prig) ... Only if you care to bite this "Calvinist" bait!) >plus Sadism Have to also revisit old Convo about "more cruelty than [absolutely?] necessary" VS psychopaths extracting benefits from win-win games While looking for DISC numbers for Taiwan vs China (& similar studies comparing states of (Maha)Bharat) https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/14/2613 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/14/2613 >In other words, only by enhancing the competitiveness of individuals in the job market and acquiring problem-solving skills, can they enhance their psychological satisfaction. Reminds me of Thiel's cooperate internally, compete externally. (? Generalizing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_type...) I'm vibing that rightwingers prefer streaming because of the compressed time scales, while lefties prefer blogs because the game becomes more "iterated".. this "explains" (institution-supported) percolation of lefty narcissists attempting to cross timescales? >I'd wish the losers could become psychopaths by having [per Aristotle... or Jefferson] some business *of their own* which they could mind. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42254503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42254503) Been mulling this (emphasis mine) as well.. that comment sounds now like giving GenA/Z Psycho-Ed (like Sex-Ed but not conducted by prigs) Secondarily, their savings rate is not going where Thiel expects, which means one's gotta encourage them to redirect these savings to bootstrap their businesses Psycho-Ed -> Psycho'ed (=purely motivational) venkatrao had a post teasing motivation vs meaning -- also 2 time-scales https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/be-history-or-do-history#:~:text=Most%20people%20do%20not%20want%20their%20sense%20of%20history%20to%20be%20true%2C%20they%20want%20it%20to%20be%20meaningful%20and%20motivating.%20Unfortunately%2C%20it%E2%80%99s%20hard%20to%20get%20both%20at%20once. https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/be-history-or-do-his... Reflexively, I'd guess that GenAZ can break the cycle because they can (potentially) get a more accurate sense of history than millennials. (Worse state capacity for formal education can help?) You'd want to look at ethnocultural crossovers in NYC (it looks promising that ICE is targeting Turkish agitators, because among frenemy immigrants, their polarization entropy most closely approximates that of the host nation-- ime) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42956827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42956827 [Only]>good at ripping off and seducing other High D people. Thus suggesting that both sama & YC are high-D :) One would have to shake-off accusations of envy from the narcissists/prigs, if one weren't cool enough Update: before today I was thinking that, unlike the further left, right+center+epsilon have always been able to coalesce around the very reasonable idea that institutions are fundamentally good (compared to the leftist version for individuals) but Paul's subaltern comment makes me wonder also about timescales with respect to genz/a building their own alt (LOW-KEY) institutions Lagniappe https://youtu.be/qvdt2FZ0_B8 https://youtu.be/qvdt2FZ0_B8 (Outcool'd Jeff goldblum from Jurassic park lol) Okay over and out no more edits
- 082349872349872 1y ago
  Aha, I'd originally confused your D with the DISC Directness. Paul's subaltern comment reminded me strongly of "Life of Brian": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4&t=92s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4&t=92s Re: Rao, I found that I had to deliberately read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization in small chunks with large breaks, because otherwise it all blurs together in terms of being a bunch of h saps being awful to each other. More specifically to his introduction, one can see big differences in the "tournament" between say 1250 and 1500: over that period they go from being a sort of open wargame with a racing-for-pinkslips feel played over the several km of hill and dale between villages, to a sport played in an enclosed pitch in front of an audience, limited to vetted entrants with the appropriate gear.
  - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
    No (or yes..?) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44477779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44477779 Those 2 sets of aggregated data seem to correlate (cross-validate?), but I haven't checked numerically, hoped for some input from Paul first So far, his website link seems VERY sus :) narcissists/sadists are forced (try?) to be indirect, *but* also fair worse in "high-context", does that mechanism make sense? (Come to think of it, Ireland makes sense now-- that HN post of sick graph pairs also comes to mind) So-- you might disagree-- that's something [not puppy-/goldfish-like] that I am alright with leaving in the centrifuge (for) now ;)
    - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
      Lagniappe https://youtu.be/gNn9NxZH2Vo https://youtu.be/gNn9NxZH2Vo >This is an anime ... with [legendary] Chinese [hero]... and ... a Hungarian song as the intro
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - 1y ago
gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/01/19/reviews/970119.19delbant.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/01/19/r... >In defending this ''union of desire and esteem,'' Lasch reveals himself as a true puritan -- not in the pejorative sense of being prudish, but in the sense of believing that good societies (on the small scale of families and the large scale of political communities) can be sustained only if desire is sanctified by respect. This is why the New England Puritans (to whom Lasch grew increasingly sympathetic as he grew older) thought of marriage as a ''miniature commonwealth,'' a model for human relations in which appetite and obligations are held in delicate balance. Lasch agrees, which is why he may be fairly described as an economic liberal and a cultural conservative -- a liberal who thinks that humane societies must curb excesses of wealth and poverty, a conservative who thinks that individual members of such societies should be held accountable to a standard of personal responsibility. Emphasis mine: Edwardian Liberal But also: "The feminist movement,..., far from civilizing corporate capitalism, has been corrupted by it. It has adopted mercantile habits of thought as its own.
- 082349872349872 1y ago
  alternative sol'n: bring on the Centrifugal Bumble Puppy parks; who needs actual progress as long as it's possible to sustain the illusion :-) (come to think of it, evaluating "progress" requires the ability to compare across longer timescales, so the goldfish* of the Brave New World need not even have the illusion, because they never reflect) * would an Edwardian complain that our recent discovery of "Goldfish with PhD's" has created entities which can expound upon the meaning of everything but the value of nothing?
  - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
    Oh no, the cavalry scared off Paul I think :( some times I can't even begin parsing what you mean :) it scares me a little, but also thrilling-- like very very abstract BDSM? Hope that's reciprocal :) Which means: I see value in your (rhetorical?) questions.. because .. I still sense deep unease? (Pardon the manic schizo) Like you always say, & I try to hold to heart: a problem worth its salt must bite back. You nibbled, but confronting the nature of (emergent society-wide) "sadism"(?) that is still somehow also seductive (to the most based of "us", I imagine), that's putting 1's head in the lion's jaw? Abstract, but feels very real<=>live Swiss style mil exercise? https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/paying-schoolgirls-to-have-babies-russia-gives-financial-incentives-for-teen-mothers-part-of-worldwide-trend/articleshow/122265741.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/paying-scho... In short, let's hasten slowly, so that we can one day put 3's and hope that'll choke the lion for a bit.. meanwhile shall we concentrate these dangerous thoughts on the periphery of our minds? (Ie centrifuge) Paul mentioned pornography elsewhere.. he has a far less sophomoric style imho (being fullish time father of real boy explains it for me*) than either of us? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44492326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44492326 *so, not quite sabra as Joseph https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d601f74ae9201df318403b8c7e25b32/8df80a8c15078c25-5b/s1280x1920/9ea757024b35e42b365be653e70f8ac681071f30.jpg https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d601f74ae9201df318403b8c7e25b32... But I also don't see myself as the kid in that pic, more as the memeshirt, or beer, or daisies ;)