3 ms·

> What are you thinking of? There is no difference between those things. I'm talking about pinyin here. In Mandarin, there are to distinct sounds, one represe

by gwd 1y ago

> What are you thinking of? There is no difference between those things. I'm talking about pinyin here. In Mandarin, there are to distinct sounds, one represented in pinyin by 'q', and one by 'ch'. It took me months to hear the difference, and months more to be able to pronounce them properly. I think there are other romanizations where the 'q' sound is represented "tch". (In fact, I'm inclined to think that there are actually two different sounds in English as well; "witch" and "Charlie" don't feel the same in my mouth.) > Technically the only voiced consonants in pinyin are m / n / ng / l / r. I think we're using different definitions of "voiced". Other voiced / unvoiced pairs in English include g/k, b/p, v/f, z/s. See [1] for an "official" example of "voiced" being used the way I'm using it. How else would you describe the difference between "qu" and "ju", or "chou" and "zhou"? The only difference I can feel is when your vocal cords turn on. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plosive#Voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plosive#Voice

thaumasiotes 1y ago
> In fact, I'm inclined to think that there are actually two different sounds in English as well; "witch" and "Charlie" don't feel the same in my mouth. There aren't. > I think there are other romanizations where the 'q' sound is represented "tch". Well, maybe; there are a large number of romanizations of Mandarin. But there are no significant romanizations where that is true. It's q in pinyin, ch' in Wade-Giles, and ts' or k' in postal romanization. > How else would you describe the difference between "qu" and "ju", or "chou" and "zhou"? The only difference I can feel is when your vocal cords turn on. You could read my other comment in the thread. qu and chou are aspirated; ju and zhou aren't. Your vocal cords don't turn on at different points for those syllables. Mandarin Chinese doesn't use voicing contrasts. > I think we're using different definitions of "voiced". Other voiced / unvoiced pairs in English include g/k, b/p, v/f, z/s. See [1] for an "official" example of "voiced" being used the way I'm using it. Yes, I know what voicing is. You don't seem to know what consonants are used in Mandarin. Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Con... .
- gwd 1y ago
  > qu and chou are aspirated; ju and zhou aren't. ...Compare [ref] So the idea here is that chou and zhou are related in a similar way that the t's in "top" and "stop" are related: your mouth and vocal cords are doing the same thing, but in one case you have the puff of air and the other you don't. At any rate, going back to the original question: the logic behind the choice is still consistent. On this classification, in Mandarin, p and t and ch are aspirated, and in English p and t and ch are voiceless; b and d and j and zh are unaspirated, and in English b and d and j and z are voiced. (And q is mainly thrown in to fill the gap, but its pronunciation in English is voiceless as well.) Or, to explicitly quote from the ref you shared: > Such pairs [of aspirated and unaspirated plosives and fricatives] are represented in the pinyin system mostly using letters which in Romance languages generally denote voiceless/voiced pairs (for example [p] and [b]).
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Languages usually have either the voiced/unvoiced distinction as phonemic, or the aspirated/unaspirated distinction. In the former case unvoiced consonants often have aspirated allophones as in English, and in the latter case unaspirated consonants often have voiced allophones especially between vowels, as in Chinese or Korean. Hence why it makes sense to map the two in this manner - if your native language uses aspiration as the primary feature, and you hear someone who uses voicing, your brain will generally map it "automatically" for you, and their speech will sound weird but understandable. (But then you get Hindi with a four-way distinction, both voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated in all possible combinations.)
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      > But then you get Hindi with a four-way distinction, both voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated in all possible combinations. They're spelled that way; I don't think they're supposed to be pronounced that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Voiced_consonants_with_voiceless_aspiration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Voiced_con... >> True aspirated voiced consonants, as opposed to murmured (breathy-voice) consonants such as the [bʱ], [dʱ], [ɡʱ] that are common among the languages of India, are extremely rare. > Languages usually have either the voiced/unvoiced distinction as phonemic, or the aspirated/unaspirated distinction. My understanding is that all of these options are fairly common: - two-way contrast between aspirated and unaspirated - two-way contrast between voiced and voiceless - three-way contrast between voiceless aspirated, voiceless, and voiced - three-way contrast for labial and alveolar stops; two-way contrast for velar stops
Kolya 1y ago
The article you linked to specifically says there are only voiceless plosives in Mandarin!
- gwd 1y ago
  And, you'll notice I pointed out English voiced plosives. :-D

by gwd 1y ago

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> In fact, I'm inclined to think that there are actually two different sounds in English as well; "witch" and "Charlie" don't feel the same in my mouth. There aren't. > I think there are other romanizations where the 'q' sound is represented "tch". Well, maybe; there are a large number of romanizations of Mandarin. But there are no significant romanizations where that is true. It's q in pinyin, ch' in Wade-Giles, and ts' or k' in postal romanization. > How else would you describe the difference between "qu" and "ju", or "chou" and "zhou"? The only difference I can feel is when your vocal cords turn on. You could read my other comment in the thread. qu and chou are aspirated; ju and zhou aren't. Your vocal cords don't turn on at different points for those syllables. Mandarin Chinese doesn't use voicing contrasts. > I think we're using different definitions of "voiced". Other voiced / unvoiced pairs in English include g/k, b/p, v/f, z/s. See [1] for an "official" example of "voiced" being used the way I'm using it. Yes, I know what voicing is. You don't seem to know what consonants are used in Mandarin. Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Con... .

gwd 1y ago
> qu and chou are aspirated; ju and zhou aren't. ...Compare [ref] So the idea here is that chou and zhou are related in a similar way that the t's in "top" and "stop" are related: your mouth and vocal cords are doing the same thing, but in one case you have the puff of air and the other you don't. At any rate, going back to the original question: the logic behind the choice is still consistent. On this classification, in Mandarin, p and t and ch are aspirated, and in English p and t and ch are voiceless; b and d and j and zh are unaspirated, and in English b and d and j and z are voiced. (And q is mainly thrown in to fill the gap, but its pronunciation in English is voiceless as well.) Or, to explicitly quote from the ref you shared: > Such pairs [of aspirated and unaspirated plosives and fricatives] are represented in the pinyin system mostly using letters which in Romance languages generally denote voiceless/voiced pairs (for example [p] and [b]).
- int_19h 1y ago
  Languages usually have either the voiced/unvoiced distinction as phonemic, or the aspirated/unaspirated distinction. In the former case unvoiced consonants often have aspirated allophones as in English, and in the latter case unaspirated consonants often have voiced allophones especially between vowels, as in Chinese or Korean. Hence why it makes sense to map the two in this manner - if your native language uses aspiration as the primary feature, and you hear someone who uses voicing, your brain will generally map it "automatically" for you, and their speech will sound weird but understandable. (But then you get Hindi with a four-way distinction, both voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated in all possible combinations.)
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > But then you get Hindi with a four-way distinction, both voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated in all possible combinations. They're spelled that way; I don't think they're supposed to be pronounced that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Voiced_consonants_with_voiceless_aspiration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Voiced_con... >> True aspirated voiced consonants, as opposed to murmured (breathy-voice) consonants such as the [bʱ], [dʱ], [ɡʱ] that are common among the languages of India, are extremely rare. > Languages usually have either the voiced/unvoiced distinction as phonemic, or the aspirated/unaspirated distinction. My understanding is that all of these options are fairly common: - two-way contrast between aspirated and unaspirated - two-way contrast between voiced and voiceless - three-way contrast between voiceless aspirated, voiceless, and voiced - three-way contrast for labial and alveolar stops; two-way contrast for velar stops

Kolya 1y ago

The article you linked to specifically says there are only voiceless plosives in Mandarin!

gwd 1y ago
And, you'll notice I pointed out English voiced plosives. :-D