4 ms·

The Godwin vignette at the beginning is such a clever way to dramatize what would otherwise be a dry spelling shift. Also, I never realized the irony that Engli

by KurSix 1y ago

The Godwin vignette at the beginning is such a clever way to dramatize what would otherwise be a dry spelling shift. Also, I never realized the irony that English avoids diacritics because of French influence

demetrius 1y ago
> to dramatize what would otherwise be a dry spelling shift I don't think that's how it was developed, though. I really doubt there are real-world cases where cwen was scrubbed and queen written above it (correct me if I'm wrong!). I think it’s more like “people stopped writing English for time being, only learned to write Norman and Latin, so when they needed to write a word or two, they’s use the spelling they knew. Eventually, this spelling because the way of writing English”. I don’t think a situation with Godwin is plausible. > I never realized the irony that English avoids > diacritics because of French influence I'm not sure that's the best way to put it. Old English also generally didn’t use diacritics (modern texts add them: we’d use cwēn instead of cƿen, but these are modern invention). So, English didn't use diacritics before Normans, and Normans didn't change this.
gwd 1y ago
> Also, I never realized the irony that English avoids diacritics because of French influence But is that why they avoid diacritics? It sounds like English probably wouldn't have had diacritics even if the Normans hadn't come in. Seeing my son try to learn to read things like "cycle", I feel like diacritics would make English writing a lot more accessible.
- sfg 1y ago
  According to the article, Norman influence led to double letters being used to better mark out sounds, which achieves the same as diacritics. It made English mostly good enough (failures like 'lead' are rare). Being good enough, and lacking a strong central authority, the language only accepted a conservative standardisation, and avoided larger changes such as including diacritics. Without these Norman changes, there is more chance diacritics would have been added, as it would not have been 'good enough'. Written English is a worse is better story. The Norman influenced version being the first-mover that users cling to even when better comes along.
  - rob74 1y ago
    Well, the "lead issue" could be fixed by writing the verb "leed" (after all, it's exactly the same sound as in the word "queen" mentioned in the article), but for some reason this hasn't happened...
    - brainwad 1y ago
      It happened in newspaper jargon for the leading sentence of an article (though they used the spelling "lede" instead), because "lead" was already a metonym for hot type (which was cast out of the metal). It hasn't happened otherwise presumably because the risk of confusion is normally very low when not in a Pb-filled context.
- t-3 1y ago
  Diacritics wouldn't have helped moderns if they were in from the beginning - most of the confusing words used to be pronounced like they are spelled (at least to people of the time). Maybe they would have helped to petrify pronunciations and slowed or stopped linguistic drift but I somewhat doubt that given historical literacy rates.

by KurSix 1y ago

demetrius 1y ago

> to dramatize what would otherwise be a dry spelling shift I don't think that's how it was developed, though. I really doubt there are real-world cases where cwen was scrubbed and queen written above it (correct me if I'm wrong!). I think it’s more like “people stopped writing English for time being, only learned to write Norman and Latin, so when they needed to write a word or two, they’s use the spelling they knew. Eventually, this spelling because the way of writing English”. I don’t think a situation with Godwin is plausible. > I never realized the irony that English avoids > diacritics because of French influence I'm not sure that's the best way to put it. Old English also generally didn’t use diacritics (modern texts add them: we’d use cwēn instead of cƿen, but these are modern invention). So, English didn't use diacritics before Normans, and Normans didn't change this.

gwd 1y ago

> Also, I never realized the irony that English avoids diacritics because of French influence But is that why they avoid diacritics? It sounds like English probably wouldn't have had diacritics even if the Normans hadn't come in. Seeing my son try to learn to read things like "cycle", I feel like diacritics would make English writing a lot more accessible.

sfg 1y ago
According to the article, Norman influence led to double letters being used to better mark out sounds, which achieves the same as diacritics. It made English mostly good enough (failures like 'lead' are rare). Being good enough, and lacking a strong central authority, the language only accepted a conservative standardisation, and avoided larger changes such as including diacritics. Without these Norman changes, there is more chance diacritics would have been added, as it would not have been 'good enough'. Written English is a worse is better story. The Norman influenced version being the first-mover that users cling to even when better comes along.
- rob74 1y ago
  Well, the "lead issue" could be fixed by writing the verb "leed" (after all, it's exactly the same sound as in the word "queen" mentioned in the article), but for some reason this hasn't happened...
  - brainwad 1y ago
    It happened in newspaper jargon for the leading sentence of an article (though they used the spelling "lede" instead), because "lead" was already a metonym for hot type (which was cast out of the metal). It hasn't happened otherwise presumably because the risk of confusion is normally very low when not in a Pb-filled context.
t-3 1y ago
Diacritics wouldn't have helped moderns if they were in from the beginning - most of the confusing words used to be pronounced like they are spelled (at least to people of the time). Maybe they would have helped to petrify pronunciations and slowed or stopped linguistic drift but I somewhat doubt that given historical literacy rates.