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In 6th grade, so back in 1982, I read the French SF novel "Malevil". I was astounded (speaking as a US kid here), to learn that French people born and raised i

In 6th grade, so back in 1982, I read the French SF novel "Malevil". I was astounded (speaking as a US kid here), to learn that French people born and raised in France didn't natively speak French, but instead learned their regional language. Here is an example, from https://archive.org/details/malevilmerl00merl/page/150/mode/2up?q=patois https://archive.org/details/malevilmerl00merl/page/150/mode/... : > And besides, Thomas was already quite isolated enough as it was: by his youth, by his city origins, by his cast of thought, by his character, and by his ignorance of our patois. I had to ask La Menou and Peyssou not to overdo the use of their first language — since neither of them had learned much French till they went to school — because at mealtimes, if they began a conversation in patois, then everyone else, little by little, would begin to drop into patois too, and after a while Thomas was made to feel a stranger in our life. Two minutes ago I learned that "patois" has a distinct meaning in France: "patois refers to any sociolect associated with uneducated rural classes, in contrast with the dominant prestige language (Standard French)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patois I am very ill-informed on the history of the topic, including the national language policies of France and Italy. I do know that Sardinian is not a dialect of Italian, but my knowledge isn't much deeper than that. ;)

ValentinPearce 1y ago
IIRC in the early 1900s, coercive methods were used to stop children speaking their native regional languages, a lot of it in school. In my region of Brittany (France) the most famous example that was on posters detailing good manners would say : "Il est interdit de parler breton et de cracher par terre" meaning "It's forbidden to speak Breton and to spit on the ground", placing both on the same level.
- mddw 1y ago
  I am afraid this quote is an urban legend. It never existed.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Stamping out minority languages and dialects was (and often still is) unfortunately common in most countries. I'm Russian, and my native regional dialect has some minor differences from standard Russian that make it sound a bit more like Belarusian. I remember how in school we had a teacher making fun of our manner of pronouncing words as "kolkhoznik speech" (implying that only the uneducated speak like that). This was in 1990s.
rkomorn 1y ago
> I was astounded (speaking as a US kid here), to learn that French people born and raised in France didn't natively speak French, but instead learned their regional language. As a French person born before 1982, I find this sentence questionable. If you mean "there were some people who learned a local dialect", then sure, you could dig some up. If you mean "many regions had dialects that were learned before French", then I believe you misunderstood (or were misled). Finding anyone who even spoke a regional dialect would've been a novelty, let alone one who grew up speaking it before French.
- eesmith 1y ago
  FWIW, the book was written in 1972. I mean "there were some people", not all people - Thomas, in the quote, came from Paris and spoke French. He did not learn a regional language. I don't mean 'many regions' because the only example I had was one region. The fact that there was at least one region where local French people, in a region which had been part of France seemingly since at least the Middle Ages, did not speak French as their mother tongue, astonished me. FWIW, the French Wikipedia page says: > Ainsi Malevil serait partiellement inspiré du site de Commarques (sa grotte, son abri troglodyte et son château)[2], tandis que le village de la Roque serait partiellement inspiré de la Roque Saint-Christophe, forteresse troglodyte voisine du château de Commarque. ... and the location, > La vallée des Rhunes : inspirée de la vallée des Beunes, et plus précisément la grande Beune. so the author's fictional location was supposed to suggest the department of Dordogne in south west France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_dialect tells me > Limousin ... is a dialect of the Occitan language, spoken in the three departments of Limousin, parts of Charente and the Dordogne in the southwest of France. ... Limousin is used primarily by people over age 50 in rural communities. All speakers speak French as a first or second language. Due to the French single language policy, it is not recognised by the government and therefore considered endangered by the linguistic community. Those people over age of 50 would likely have been children in a book written 53 years ago, with Limousin as a much more common language amongst the local adults.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    "Over 50 in rural communities" in one of the more sparsely populated areas of France makes for a very small slice of the population even in that area, and even then, as pointed out, French is spoken by everyone. On top of that, it is more "anyone who speaks limousin is likely over 50, and in a rural community", than "anyone over 50 in rural communities in that area likely speaks Limousin". There are 10k speakers of Limousin today (according to Wikipedia), out of about 1.2M residents in Dordogne and Limousin combined. That's less than 1% just for that area. To me, it is more of a local curiosity than a mind-blowing fact, but I suppose I grew up learning about the various dialects in France, so I have a different take.
bookofjoe 1y ago
See also: Jamaican Patois aka speakyspoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Patois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Patois
yawboakye 1y ago
it remains true to this day. gascon[0] is still spoken in south of france, by both young and old. i know because i've heard it spoken. the idea that the french speak french, italians italian, is very modern. european nations weren't as properly integrated as modern history will have us believe. iirc the integration sped up post-ww2. cf seeing like a state[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascon_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascon_dialect [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  I studied Anglo-Norman French (circa 1300s), and found it strikingly useful speaking with a woman who worked in the Breton region of France.

ValentinPearce 1y ago

IIRC in the early 1900s, coercive methods were used to stop children speaking their native regional languages, a lot of it in school. In my region of Brittany (France) the most famous example that was on posters detailing good manners would say : "Il est interdit de parler breton et de cracher par terre" meaning "It's forbidden to speak Breton and to spit on the ground", placing both on the same level.

mddw 1y ago
I am afraid this quote is an urban legend. It never existed.
int_19h 1y ago
Stamping out minority languages and dialects was (and often still is) unfortunately common in most countries. I'm Russian, and my native regional dialect has some minor differences from standard Russian that make it sound a bit more like Belarusian. I remember how in school we had a teacher making fun of our manner of pronouncing words as "kolkhoznik speech" (implying that only the uneducated speak like that). This was in 1990s.

rkomorn 1y ago

> I was astounded (speaking as a US kid here), to learn that French people born and raised in France didn't natively speak French, but instead learned their regional language. As a French person born before 1982, I find this sentence questionable. If you mean "there were some people who learned a local dialect", then sure, you could dig some up. If you mean "many regions had dialects that were learned before French", then I believe you misunderstood (or were misled). Finding anyone who even spoke a regional dialect would've been a novelty, let alone one who grew up speaking it before French.

eesmith 1y ago
FWIW, the book was written in 1972. I mean "there were some people", not all people - Thomas, in the quote, came from Paris and spoke French. He did not learn a regional language. I don't mean 'many regions' because the only example I had was one region. The fact that there was at least one region where local French people, in a region which had been part of France seemingly since at least the Middle Ages, did not speak French as their mother tongue, astonished me. FWIW, the French Wikipedia page says: > Ainsi Malevil serait partiellement inspiré du site de Commarques (sa grotte, son abri troglodyte et son château)[2], tandis que le village de la Roque serait partiellement inspiré de la Roque Saint-Christophe, forteresse troglodyte voisine du château de Commarque. ... and the location, > La vallée des Rhunes : inspirée de la vallée des Beunes, et plus précisément la grande Beune. so the author's fictional location was supposed to suggest the department of Dordogne in south west France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_dialect tells me > Limousin ... is a dialect of the Occitan language, spoken in the three departments of Limousin, parts of Charente and the Dordogne in the southwest of France. ... Limousin is used primarily by people over age 50 in rural communities. All speakers speak French as a first or second language. Due to the French single language policy, it is not recognised by the government and therefore considered endangered by the linguistic community. Those people over age of 50 would likely have been children in a book written 53 years ago, with Limousin as a much more common language amongst the local adults.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  "Over 50 in rural communities" in one of the more sparsely populated areas of France makes for a very small slice of the population even in that area, and even then, as pointed out, French is spoken by everyone. On top of that, it is more "anyone who speaks limousin is likely over 50, and in a rural community", than "anyone over 50 in rural communities in that area likely speaks Limousin". There are 10k speakers of Limousin today (according to Wikipedia), out of about 1.2M residents in Dordogne and Limousin combined. That's less than 1% just for that area. To me, it is more of a local curiosity than a mind-blowing fact, but I suppose I grew up learning about the various dialects in France, so I have a different take.

bookofjoe 1y ago

See also: Jamaican Patois aka speakyspoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Patois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Patois

yawboakye 1y ago

it remains true to this day. gascon[0] is still spoken in south of france, by both young and old. i know because i've heard it spoken. the idea that the french speak french, italians italian, is very modern. european nations weren't as properly integrated as modern history will have us believe. iirc the integration sped up post-ww2. cf seeing like a state[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascon_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascon_dialect [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

IAmBroom 1y ago
I studied Anglo-Norman French (circa 1300s), and found it strikingly useful speaking with a woman who worked in the Breton region of France.