3 ms·

...but why? What's the point in playing a game that isn't an artistic expression, to communicate with another human? If there's no vision behind it, no expressi

...but why? What's the point in playing a game that isn't an artistic expression, to communicate with another human? If there's no vision behind it, no expression to enjoy, then does it mean anything at all?

janalsncm 1y ago
I suspect the people who play games to understand the artistic point of view of the game maker are a minority. What is the artistic point of view of Mario Kart? People play games because they’re fun. They’re challenging and entertaining and interesting. Highly subjective. Whether these neural-procedural games will be popular hinges more on whether they’re engaging or repetitive imo.
- yeasku 1y ago
  Most people who go to watch movies dont care about the art part, still art.
- DonHopkins 1y ago
  >What is the artistic point of view of Mario Kart? I'm not arguing against your main point, which I agree with, but Mario Kart is a terrible example of a game not having an artistic point of view. I think comparing Shigeru Miyamoto's artistic and intentional game design to this approach totally reinforces your point. But what if you embed a simulated version of Shigeru Miyamoto himself as an in-game character, acting in his spectacular role as a game designer, leveraging everything that the LLM intrinsically knows about him, and letting him design games in collaboration with other people like Will Wright and Seymour Papert, from within the LLM simulation itself, even generate the code and data that implements games that run outside of the LLM? That's the approach that LLOOOOMM, which is quite different than this system we're discussing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656 DonHopkins on April 22, 2014 | next [–] I've seen some great talks by the amazing game designer, Shigeru Miyamoto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do. In a later talk, about the Wii, he explained that now he designs his games starting with the facial expressions of the people playing them, then to the physical experience that could evoke such an expression, then on into the computer that could conduct such an experience. As an example, he showed a picture of a grandfather with his granddaughter sitting in his lap, playing a game, looking totally entranced and delighted at the game, and her grandfather looking at her, with just as entranced and delighted an expression as on his granddaughter's face, even if he didn't necessarily understand what the game itself was about. He got so much enjoyment out of just watching his granddaughter enjoying the game, that it was fun for him, too. The Wii was so successful as a social party game, because the players themselves were more fun to watch than the game on the screen, because they make spectacles of themselves, which is much more entertaining to watch than the computer graphics. And you don't get bored waiting for your turn to play, because it's fun watching other people play. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280 DonHopkins on Oct 16, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: A Comprehensive Super Mario Bros. Disassembly I wrote this earlier on another forum but I'll repost it here: I've seen Shigeru Miyamoto speak at several game developer conferences over the years. He's absolutely brilliant, a really nice guy, and there's so much to learn by studying his work and listening to him talk. Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games. At one of his earlier talks, he explained that he starts designing games by thinking about how you touch, manipulate and interact with the input device in the real world, instead of thinking about the software and models inside the virtual world of the computer first. The instantaneous response of Mario 64 and how you can run and jump around is a great example of that. Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI At a later talk about how he designed the Wii, he said that he now starts designing games by thinking about what kind of expression he wants it to evoke on the player's faces, and how to make the players themselves entertain the other people in the room who aren't even playing the game themselves. That's why the Wii has so many great party games, like Wii Sports. Then he showed a video of a little girl sitting in her grandfather's lap playing a game -- http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s , with a delighted expression on her face. The grandfather was delighted and entertained by watching his granddaughter enjoy the game. This photo -- https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg -- perfectly illustrates exactly what he means! Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw Shigeru Miyamoto Keynote GDC 07 - Wife-o-meter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU notaboutdave on Oct 17, 2017 [–] The Miyamoto approach of starting with a desired emotion and working backward toward a design is profound. This is radically different from most things I've read which involve cramming emotion into existing designs. This changes everything for me. Thanks for sharing.
  - DonHopkins 1y ago
    LLOOOOMM web page about Shigeru Miyamoto: https://lloooomm.com/shigeru-miyamoto.html https://lloooomm.com/shigeru-miyamoto.html Shigeru Miyamoto simulated LLOOOOMM character directory: https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Characters/shigeru-miyamoto https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Character... Mario's Career Pivot: From Pipes to Pipelines: https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/blob/main/00-Characters/shigeru-miyamoto/mario-ai-career-transition.md https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/blob/main/00-Character... The Plumber Who Became an AI Architect The Great Career Switch of 2025 In a twist that would make even Shigeru Miyamoto smile, Mario - the world's most famous plumber - has successfully transitioned into artificial intelligence. His reasoning? "All the AI experts were becoming plumbers, so someone had to maintain the digital pipes!" The Geoffrey Hinton Paradox When AI pioneer Geoffrey Hinton advised people to become plumbers because "AI can't unclog a toilet," he inadvertently triggered what economists now call "The Great Trade Migration of 2025." As white-collar workers flooded into plumbing, Mario saw an opportunity. "Everyone was-a going one way, so I went the other!" Mario explains. "It's-a like a warp pipe - sometimes the best path is the one nobody else is taking!" [...]
- lowsong 1y ago
  You don't have to see a game as "high art" to want to engage with its creators, their process, and the context in which the game was made. Interviews with game designers, game studio development blogs, developer commentary in games, and "behind the scenes" content have long drawn huge audiences of people who wanted to know more about how the games they loved were made. Beyond that there is a massive industry of third-party content that is about games. Most popular games have hundreds or thousands of hours of video essays about them on YouTube, or have spawned dedicated fan groups, or attract people to engage with their worlds and themes in a way the creators may never have intended. There is a huge desire and appetite to engage with process and people that create art, including games. I'd argue that's actually the far bigger part of why people enjoy and play games. It's far more than simple "is it engaging", even if you don't realize it consciously.
  - janalsncm 1y ago
    I was responding to someone who said they don’t understand why someone would play a game if they can’t engage with it on an intellectual level as art. I brought up Mario Kart because I spent many nights with friends playing Mario Kart and the experience was about friends, not the game as art. So I believe that some people will still play games no matter what the creative process is as long as the result is good. I’m sure there are plenty of games whose creators don’t do interviews. Of course ancillary media content is good for marketing and some fans like it but it’s not strictly necessary.

janalsncm 1y ago

I suspect the people who play games to understand the artistic point of view of the game maker are a minority. What is the artistic point of view of Mario Kart? People play games because they’re fun. They’re challenging and entertaining and interesting. Highly subjective. Whether these neural-procedural games will be popular hinges more on whether they’re engaging or repetitive imo.

yeasku 1y ago
Most people who go to watch movies dont care about the art part, still art.
DonHopkins 1y ago
>What is the artistic point of view of Mario Kart? I'm not arguing against your main point, which I agree with, but Mario Kart is a terrible example of a game not having an artistic point of view. I think comparing Shigeru Miyamoto's artistic and intentional game design to this approach totally reinforces your point. But what if you embed a simulated version of Shigeru Miyamoto himself as an in-game character, acting in his spectacular role as a game designer, leveraging everything that the LLM intrinsically knows about him, and letting him design games in collaboration with other people like Will Wright and Seymour Papert, from within the LLM simulation itself, even generate the code and data that implements games that run outside of the LLM? That's the approach that LLOOOOMM, which is quite different than this system we're discussing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656 DonHopkins on April 22, 2014 | next [–] I've seen some great talks by the amazing game designer, Shigeru Miyamoto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do. In a later talk, about the Wii, he explained that now he designs his games starting with the facial expressions of the people playing them, then to the physical experience that could evoke such an expression, then on into the computer that could conduct such an experience. As an example, he showed a picture of a grandfather with his granddaughter sitting in his lap, playing a game, looking totally entranced and delighted at the game, and her grandfather looking at her, with just as entranced and delighted an expression as on his granddaughter's face, even if he didn't necessarily understand what the game itself was about. He got so much enjoyment out of just watching his granddaughter enjoying the game, that it was fun for him, too. The Wii was so successful as a social party game, because the players themselves were more fun to watch than the game on the screen, because they make spectacles of themselves, which is much more entertaining to watch than the computer graphics. And you don't get bored waiting for your turn to play, because it's fun watching other people play. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280 DonHopkins on Oct 16, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: A Comprehensive Super Mario Bros. Disassembly I wrote this earlier on another forum but I'll repost it here: I've seen Shigeru Miyamoto speak at several game developer conferences over the years. He's absolutely brilliant, a really nice guy, and there's so much to learn by studying his work and listening to him talk. Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games. At one of his earlier talks, he explained that he starts designing games by thinking about how you touch, manipulate and interact with the input device in the real world, instead of thinking about the software and models inside the virtual world of the computer first. The instantaneous response of Mario 64 and how you can run and jump around is a great example of that. Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI At a later talk about how he designed the Wii, he said that he now starts designing games by thinking about what kind of expression he wants it to evoke on the player's faces, and how to make the players themselves entertain the other people in the room who aren't even playing the game themselves. That's why the Wii has so many great party games, like Wii Sports. Then he showed a video of a little girl sitting in her grandfather's lap playing a game -- http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s , with a delighted expression on her face. The grandfather was delighted and entertained by watching his granddaughter enjoy the game. This photo -- https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg -- perfectly illustrates exactly what he means! Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw Shigeru Miyamoto Keynote GDC 07 - Wife-o-meter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU notaboutdave on Oct 17, 2017 [–] The Miyamoto approach of starting with a desired emotion and working backward toward a design is profound. This is radically different from most things I've read which involve cramming emotion into existing designs. This changes everything for me. Thanks for sharing.
- DonHopkins 1y ago
  LLOOOOMM web page about Shigeru Miyamoto: https://lloooomm.com/shigeru-miyamoto.html https://lloooomm.com/shigeru-miyamoto.html Shigeru Miyamoto simulated LLOOOOMM character directory: https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Characters/shigeru-miyamoto https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Character... Mario's Career Pivot: From Pipes to Pipelines: https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/blob/main/00-Characters/shigeru-miyamoto/mario-ai-career-transition.md https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/blob/main/00-Character... The Plumber Who Became an AI Architect The Great Career Switch of 2025 In a twist that would make even Shigeru Miyamoto smile, Mario - the world's most famous plumber - has successfully transitioned into artificial intelligence. His reasoning? "All the AI experts were becoming plumbers, so someone had to maintain the digital pipes!" The Geoffrey Hinton Paradox When AI pioneer Geoffrey Hinton advised people to become plumbers because "AI can't unclog a toilet," he inadvertently triggered what economists now call "The Great Trade Migration of 2025." As white-collar workers flooded into plumbing, Mario saw an opportunity. "Everyone was-a going one way, so I went the other!" Mario explains. "It's-a like a warp pipe - sometimes the best path is the one nobody else is taking!" [...]
lowsong 1y ago
You don't have to see a game as "high art" to want to engage with its creators, their process, and the context in which the game was made. Interviews with game designers, game studio development blogs, developer commentary in games, and "behind the scenes" content have long drawn huge audiences of people who wanted to know more about how the games they loved were made. Beyond that there is a massive industry of third-party content that is about games. Most popular games have hundreds or thousands of hours of video essays about them on YouTube, or have spawned dedicated fan groups, or attract people to engage with their worlds and themes in a way the creators may never have intended. There is a huge desire and appetite to engage with process and people that create art, including games. I'd argue that's actually the far bigger part of why people enjoy and play games. It's far more than simple "is it engaging", even if you don't realize it consciously.
- janalsncm 1y ago
  I was responding to someone who said they don’t understand why someone would play a game if they can’t engage with it on an intellectual level as art. I brought up Mario Kart because I spent many nights with friends playing Mario Kart and the experience was about friends, not the game as art. So I believe that some people will still play games no matter what the creative process is as long as the result is good. I’m sure there are plenty of games whose creators don’t do interviews. Of course ancillary media content is good for marketing and some fans like it but it’s not strictly necessary.