5 ms·

Diacritics aren't unambiguous, there are different conventions for using them. What sound does "ā" make? It depends.

by Dwedit 1y ago

Affric 1y ago
If what it depends on is the language then thats trivial.
- dijit 1y ago
  Why is it trivial? The ä and a sounds in Swedish and Finnish are swapped; and they're direct neighbours (with compulsory education for Swedish in Finland, no less).
  - forinti 1y ago
    But within each language it is well defined. Between languages, even the letters have different uses. Diacritics can be used to signal a different sound or the tonicity of the word (at least in the languages I know those are the two uses). I don't understand what this thread is all about. English doesn't need accents because there's no universal meaning attached to each one? That doesn't make sense.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    not just neighbors by country. a not insignificant proportion of finns speak swedish natively
  - lrasinen 1y ago
    Do you have any examples? As a Finnish speaker the Swedish "a" sounds the same. "Pappa", "framtiden" etc. It's "ä" and "e" which have swapped uses, but it's not exactly consistent (e.g. "Järnvägstorget" where first ä is close to the Finnish ä, second ä is closer to e but so is the e at the end)
    - dijit 1y ago
      Ä in Swedish is an æ sound. Ä in Finnish is a pitched A sound, like the A in “cat”. The pitched “a” in Swedish is the default one.
      - lrasinen 1y ago
        Wikipedia lists both "cat" and the Finnish "mäki" under æ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_front_unrounded_vowel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_front_unrounded_vo... Do you have some example words that would show the difference?
        dijit 1y ago
        Well, mostly hearing people say the words will be telling. Gävle in Sweden: https://forvo.com/word/g%C3%A4vle/ https://forvo.com/word/g%C3%A4vle/ Linnanmäki in Finland: https://forvo.com/word/linnanm%C3%A4ki/ https://forvo.com/word/linnanm%C3%A4ki/ In the Finnish example you can hear both the soft “en” (linnan) and the higher pitched “Â” (maki) which is triggered with umlauts; Where the Swedish A is softened by umlauts in the Gävle example.
        3836293648 1y ago
        That's an american cat then, because that sounds crazy to my ears
      - dijit 1y ago
        (how did I get downvoted for this when I literally lived in both countries)
TacticalCoder 1y ago
Many native english speaker here like to fantasize on the superiority of other cultures / languages but what good are diacritics for when there are still a shitload of letters that have no diacritics and can be pronounced in different ways? For example let's take french... A cat is a "chat" but you don't pronounced the 't'. Oh but in "chatte" (pussycat or pussy), you pronounce the t's. While in other words in french you pronounced the 't', like in "table" (yup, it means a table btw). Speaking of which, the 'e' in "le chat" isn't pronounced the same as the mostly (but not entirely) silent 'e' in "table". No diacritics on these 'e' here and yet they've got different pronunciations. Don't come and say: "but that's only with silent letters". Definitely not. "elle" (she) and "le" (the)... Different pronunciation for these three e's. I've got better: "les fils" (the sons) vs "les fils" (the cables). Exact same spelling. But in one you pronounce the 's', in the other you don't. Wait, even better: "le fils" (the son) vs "les fils" (the sons). Same pronunciation for "fils", no plural or singular: just one word with a 's' at the end. Stop romanticizing about french: it probably has more exceptions and weirdness than english. And you probably don't want to get me started on the average reading and writing skills in elementary and secondary schools in France. It's in freefall so the whole point is kinda moot: the digital natives can't use diacritics properly in french. Heck, many can't even (and don't want to) speak proper french. The language is becoming simpler and simpler, dumber and dumber. Source: I'm a native french speaker.
- shiroiuma 1y ago
  >Many native english speaker here like to fantasize on the superiority of other cultures / languages Some languages really are a lot better than English as far as mapping between spellings and pronunciations. French just isn't one of them; as you pointed out, it's possibly even worse. I point to German as the superior European language in this regard. I learned some in high school. I can't speak conversationally any more, but I know the pronunciation rules, so if I can read it, I can say it and pronounce it well enough for a German speaker to understand me, even though I don't understand it myself. That said, German is a nightmare compared to English because of the grammatical complexity (cases etc.), but for pronunciation in relation to spelling, it's excellent. The written form really does reflect the spoken form accurately.

Diacritics aren't unambiguous, there are different conventions for using them. What sound does "ā" make? It depends.

by Dwedit 1y ago

Diacritics aren't unambiguous, there are different conventions for using them. What sound does "ā" make? It depends.

Affric 1y ago

If what it depends on is the language then thats trivial.

dijit 1y ago
Why is it trivial? The ä and a sounds in Swedish and Finnish are swapped; and they're direct neighbours (with compulsory education for Swedish in Finland, no less).
- forinti 1y ago
  But within each language it is well defined. Between languages, even the letters have different uses. Diacritics can be used to signal a different sound or the tonicity of the word (at least in the languages I know those are the two uses). I don't understand what this thread is all about. English doesn't need accents because there's no universal meaning attached to each one? That doesn't make sense.
- em-bee 1y ago
  not just neighbors by country. a not insignificant proportion of finns speak swedish natively
- lrasinen 1y ago
  Do you have any examples? As a Finnish speaker the Swedish "a" sounds the same. "Pappa", "framtiden" etc. It's "ä" and "e" which have swapped uses, but it's not exactly consistent (e.g. "Järnvägstorget" where first ä is close to the Finnish ä, second ä is closer to e but so is the e at the end)
  - dijit 1y ago
    Ä in Swedish is an æ sound. Ä in Finnish is a pitched A sound, like the A in “cat”. The pitched “a” in Swedish is the default one.
    - lrasinen 1y ago
      Wikipedia lists both "cat" and the Finnish "mäki" under æ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_front_unrounded_vowel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_front_unrounded_vo... Do you have some example words that would show the difference?
      - dijit 1y ago
        Well, mostly hearing people say the words will be telling. Gävle in Sweden: https://forvo.com/word/g%C3%A4vle/ https://forvo.com/word/g%C3%A4vle/ Linnanmäki in Finland: https://forvo.com/word/linnanm%C3%A4ki/ https://forvo.com/word/linnanm%C3%A4ki/ In the Finnish example you can hear both the soft “en” (linnan) and the higher pitched “Â” (maki) which is triggered with umlauts; Where the Swedish A is softened by umlauts in the Gävle example.
      - 3836293648 1y ago
        That's an american cat then, because that sounds crazy to my ears
    - dijit 1y ago
      (how did I get downvoted for this when I literally lived in both countries)

TacticalCoder 1y ago

Many native english speaker here like to fantasize on the superiority of other cultures / languages but what good are diacritics for when there are still a shitload of letters that have no diacritics and can be pronounced in different ways? For example let's take french... A cat is a "chat" but you don't pronounced the 't'. Oh but in "chatte" (pussycat or pussy), you pronounce the t's. While in other words in french you pronounced the 't', like in "table" (yup, it means a table btw). Speaking of which, the 'e' in "le chat" isn't pronounced the same as the mostly (but not entirely) silent 'e' in "table". No diacritics on these 'e' here and yet they've got different pronunciations. Don't come and say: "but that's only with silent letters". Definitely not. "elle" (she) and "le" (the)... Different pronunciation for these three e's. I've got better: "les fils" (the sons) vs "les fils" (the cables). Exact same spelling. But in one you pronounce the 's', in the other you don't. Wait, even better: "le fils" (the son) vs "les fils" (the sons). Same pronunciation for "fils", no plural or singular: just one word with a 's' at the end. Stop romanticizing about french: it probably has more exceptions and weirdness than english. And you probably don't want to get me started on the average reading and writing skills in elementary and secondary schools in France. It's in freefall so the whole point is kinda moot: the digital natives can't use diacritics properly in french. Heck, many can't even (and don't want to) speak proper french. The language is becoming simpler and simpler, dumber and dumber. Source: I'm a native french speaker.

shiroiuma 1y ago
>Many native english speaker here like to fantasize on the superiority of other cultures / languages Some languages really are a lot better than English as far as mapping between spellings and pronunciations. French just isn't one of them; as you pointed out, it's possibly even worse. I point to German as the superior European language in this regard. I learned some in high school. I can't speak conversationally any more, but I know the pronunciation rules, so if I can read it, I can say it and pronounce it well enough for a German speaker to understand me, even though I don't understand it myself. That said, German is a nightmare compared to English because of the grammatical complexity (cases etc.), but for pronunciation in relation to spelling, it's excellent. The written form really does reflect the spoken form accurately.