3 ms·

The alternative claim - that large traders do not make decisions based on how their activity will move the market, is of course absurd. It’s just political. Wh

The alternative claim - that large traders do not make decisions based on how their activity will move the market, is of course absurd. It’s just political. Who is allowed to manipulate and who pays their dues to be able to.

throwaway2037 1y ago
First part: Yep, 100% agree. Second part: Typical HN when discussing public markets. Zero evidence provided, except "my tin foil hat works".
- nobodyandproud 1y ago
  Janestreet and its graduates earned a reputation, and it’s not a flattering one.
- monkeyelite 1y ago
  The second part follows logically. If large movements of money manipulate the market then when would “manipulation” be used to claim an actor was misbehaving? 1) they did a special kind of manipulation clearly against the rules 2) they didn’t do anything different, but the regulators decided they didn’t want them to. 2 would be exactly what I said - their activity has acquired political interest.
alephnerd 1y ago
Not really. In this case it was Millenium ratting out on Jane Street (edit - other way around), but now the entire HFT (Edit: hedge funds. Thanks for the callout avvt4avaw) industry is under extreme scrutiny by SEBI as a result [0] [0] - https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/jul-2025/interim-order-in-the-matter-of-index-manipulation-by-jane-street-group_95040.html https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/jul-2025/interim-...
- steveBK123 1y ago
  Yes as presented this behavior is clearly illegal. The next interesting question is if such an obviously illegal strategy was in use by JS, and they also produced the likes of SBF&co, what other related manipulation activity are they partaking in?
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    This behavior became common in the Indian market after the newer HFTs (Edit: hedge funds. Thanks for the callout avvt4avaw) in the Indian market like Millenium, Jane Street, Citadel, and others setup shop, and explains a LOT of the market weirdness that happened last year. DE Shaw India has been a much smarter player in Indian equities. Jane Street's kvetching about Millenium showed the spotlight and now everyone will be getting the hammer ("iss hamam mein sabh nange hain"). Jane Street was also dumb enough to do this during the General Election, so now Indian regulators have to do something. This plus the Adani prosecution is a quick win to restore confidence in SEBI.
    - avvt4avaw 1y ago
      This is a very weird use of terminology. None of Jane Street, Millennium or Citadel are High Frequency Traders (HFTs). Jane Street is a prop trading firm who engages in market making, but is not primarily known for HFT - they are grey box (i.e. human-in-the-loop) which on the spectrum of market making strategies, is pretty much the opposite end from HFTs. Other firms in this bracket include SIG and DRW. Millennium and Citadel are both hedge funds, who do not engage in market making at all. They are most similar to other multi-strategy hedge funds like Balyasny or Point72. You may be thinking of Citadel Securities, who are a market making firm and do engage in high frequency trading. Other large and well known HFT firms include Hudson River Trading, Tower Research, Jump Trading, Virtu, IMC and Optiver.
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        I'm not a domain expert in this space, and have used HFT to refer to these firms simply due to their technical trading nature. I appreciate the explanation! The closest I've ever been to this industry was bombing an FPGA optimization interview at Citadel eons ago, but I also don't like humidity or snow for 9 months in a year, but I do like Malort and Hyde Park - such is life. Jokes aside, I appreciate callouts and/or corrections!
- anonu 1y ago
  Didn't Jane Street sue Millenium first? I think the lesson of all this is - don't sue over your trading strategy secrets.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    I think you might be right. It was such a juvenile and petty squabble. And on top of that - don't make such squabbles public during a GENERAL ELECTION, thus forcing politicans to cleanup shop. Same thing happened to Adani Group, as their scandal hit during the run up of the 2024 GE. Now both Adani Group and the HFT industry are under severe scrutiny due to the upcoming Bihar Elections, which is used a sandbox to test messaging by the opposition and incumbents in preparation of the next General Election and other state elections.
- monkeyelite 1y ago
  I’m speaking broader than that. It’s impossible to move a lot of money without secondary effects. Any pretense that does not give you advantages is misleading.
  - landl0rd 1y ago
    Any pretense that does not give you disadvantages is misleading. Small shops and retail don't have to worry about e.g. slippage like the big guys do when taking positions. Big shops can work out custom instruments sometimes but on the other hand they also need them a lot more, as trying to pick up adequate hedging in derivatives mkts could wind up with yet more slippage. Etc.
    - TacticalCoder 1y ago
      Yup Jim Simons from the Renaissance hedge fund fame kept saying that: there are a shitload of (legal btw) strategies that do work with smallish amounts but they stop working once you get big.
    - monkeyelite 1y ago
      Yes, and so it’s a misnomer when we talk about whether a big player is manipulating or not. They are.
Majromax 1y ago
> The alternative claim - that large traders do not make decisions based on how their activity will move the market, is of course absurd. No, that's de riugeur for any large firm. You or I can buy a stock without changing the market, but if a bank or hedge fund wants to buy or sell millions of dollars of a stock they very much have to worry about execution. The price they receive for a trade will be worse than the market price, simply because the price will move once it's clear that someone is making a large block trade. This is also why hedge funds worry about their 'alpha'. Even when they have found a good basis for a trade (e.g. an as-yet unexploited correlation), taking a position to profit on that trade moves prices in ways that eliminate that edge. That's the efficient market hypothesis in action. The very odd thing here is the allegation that Jane Street could make perfectly ordinary market transactions in liquid securities and somehow have the market move with their net position. This is extremely unusual.
- monkeyelite 1y ago
  That’s what I said.

throwaway2037 1y ago

First part: Yep, 100% agree. Second part: Typical HN when discussing public markets. Zero evidence provided, except "my tin foil hat works".

nobodyandproud 1y ago
Janestreet and its graduates earned a reputation, and it’s not a flattering one.
monkeyelite 1y ago
The second part follows logically. If large movements of money manipulate the market then when would “manipulation” be used to claim an actor was misbehaving? 1) they did a special kind of manipulation clearly against the rules 2) they didn’t do anything different, but the regulators decided they didn’t want them to. 2 would be exactly what I said - their activity has acquired political interest.

alephnerd 1y ago

Not really. In this case it was Millenium ratting out on Jane Street (edit - other way around), but now the entire HFT (Edit: hedge funds. Thanks for the callout avvt4avaw) industry is under extreme scrutiny by SEBI as a result [0] [0] - https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/jul-2025/interim-order-in-the-matter-of-index-manipulation-by-jane-street-group_95040.html https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/jul-2025/interim-...

steveBK123 1y ago
Yes as presented this behavior is clearly illegal. The next interesting question is if such an obviously illegal strategy was in use by JS, and they also produced the likes of SBF&co, what other related manipulation activity are they partaking in?
- alephnerd 1y ago
  This behavior became common in the Indian market after the newer HFTs (Edit: hedge funds. Thanks for the callout avvt4avaw) in the Indian market like Millenium, Jane Street, Citadel, and others setup shop, and explains a LOT of the market weirdness that happened last year. DE Shaw India has been a much smarter player in Indian equities. Jane Street's kvetching about Millenium showed the spotlight and now everyone will be getting the hammer ("iss hamam mein sabh nange hain"). Jane Street was also dumb enough to do this during the General Election, so now Indian regulators have to do something. This plus the Adani prosecution is a quick win to restore confidence in SEBI.
  - avvt4avaw 1y ago
    This is a very weird use of terminology. None of Jane Street, Millennium or Citadel are High Frequency Traders (HFTs). Jane Street is a prop trading firm who engages in market making, but is not primarily known for HFT - they are grey box (i.e. human-in-the-loop) which on the spectrum of market making strategies, is pretty much the opposite end from HFTs. Other firms in this bracket include SIG and DRW. Millennium and Citadel are both hedge funds, who do not engage in market making at all. They are most similar to other multi-strategy hedge funds like Balyasny or Point72. You may be thinking of Citadel Securities, who are a market making firm and do engage in high frequency trading. Other large and well known HFT firms include Hudson River Trading, Tower Research, Jump Trading, Virtu, IMC and Optiver.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      I'm not a domain expert in this space, and have used HFT to refer to these firms simply due to their technical trading nature. I appreciate the explanation! The closest I've ever been to this industry was bombing an FPGA optimization interview at Citadel eons ago, but I also don't like humidity or snow for 9 months in a year, but I do like Malort and Hyde Park - such is life. Jokes aside, I appreciate callouts and/or corrections!
anonu 1y ago
Didn't Jane Street sue Millenium first? I think the lesson of all this is - don't sue over your trading strategy secrets.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  I think you might be right. It was such a juvenile and petty squabble. And on top of that - don't make such squabbles public during a GENERAL ELECTION, thus forcing politicans to cleanup shop. Same thing happened to Adani Group, as their scandal hit during the run up of the 2024 GE. Now both Adani Group and the HFT industry are under severe scrutiny due to the upcoming Bihar Elections, which is used a sandbox to test messaging by the opposition and incumbents in preparation of the next General Election and other state elections.
monkeyelite 1y ago
I’m speaking broader than that. It’s impossible to move a lot of money without secondary effects. Any pretense that does not give you advantages is misleading.
- landl0rd 1y ago
  Any pretense that does not give you disadvantages is misleading. Small shops and retail don't have to worry about e.g. slippage like the big guys do when taking positions. Big shops can work out custom instruments sometimes but on the other hand they also need them a lot more, as trying to pick up adequate hedging in derivatives mkts could wind up with yet more slippage. Etc.
  - TacticalCoder 1y ago
    Yup Jim Simons from the Renaissance hedge fund fame kept saying that: there are a shitload of (legal btw) strategies that do work with smallish amounts but they stop working once you get big.
  - monkeyelite 1y ago
    Yes, and so it’s a misnomer when we talk about whether a big player is manipulating or not. They are.

Majromax 1y ago

> The alternative claim - that large traders do not make decisions based on how their activity will move the market, is of course absurd. No, that's de riugeur for any large firm. You or I can buy a stock without changing the market, but if a bank or hedge fund wants to buy or sell millions of dollars of a stock they very much have to worry about execution. The price they receive for a trade will be worse than the market price, simply because the price will move once it's clear that someone is making a large block trade. This is also why hedge funds worry about their 'alpha'. Even when they have found a good basis for a trade (e.g. an as-yet unexploited correlation), taking a position to profit on that trade moves prices in ways that eliminate that edge. That's the efficient market hypothesis in action. The very odd thing here is the allegation that Jane Street could make perfectly ordinary market transactions in liquid securities and somehow have the market move with their net position. This is extremely unusual.

monkeyelite 1y ago
That’s what I said.