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Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. Most people are not prepared to handle talking

Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. Most people are not prepared to handle talking about culture. So, LLMs also aren't. They are not any better than asking an average person, will make mistakes, will disappoint. Egyptologists are better equipped to talk about egyptian myths. LLMs cannot handle egyptian culture as well as they can.

TeMPOraL 1y ago
History != culture. Culture has roots in history, but is a living thing defined by the experience and perception of average people living it. Short of going to a place and living it, LLMs are actually your best bet at getting the feel for a culture[0] - it sampled more reports from people of that culture than you ever could yourself. Egyptologists are better equipped to talk about Egyptian myths than average people. But don't confuse Egyptian mythology for Egyptian culture, the former is only a component of the latter. Also LLMs have read more primary sources on Ancient Egypt and Egyptian myths than you, me, average person, and even most amateur Egyptologists. -- [0] - If it's large enough to have enough of a written footprint, that is.
ben_w 1y ago
> Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. I know your challenge, that is why I said what I said. Your own screenshot specifically, literally bold-faced, shows that you are wrong: the LLM told you what you said "(they just can't do it _before_ you correct them)". The Gemeni opening paragraph is all bold, but just draw your eyes over the bit saying "clash": theory of ancient astronauts reveals a fascinating clash between a rich, symbolic spiritual tradition and a modern-day reinterpretation of ancient mysteries This is not the words of taking ancient aliens at face value, it's the words of someone comparing and contrasting the two groups without judging them. You can do that, you know — just as you don't have to actually take seriously the idea that Ra sailed the sun across the sky in a barque to be an Egyptologist, just the idea that ancient Egyptians believed that. > Most people are not prepared to handle talking about culture. So, LLMs also aren't. They do a better job than most people, precisely because they're deferential to the point they're in danger of one of sycophancy or fawning. That's what enables them to role-play as any culture at all if you ask them to; this differs from most humans who will rigidly hold the same position even when confronted with evidence, for example yourself in this thread (and likely me elsewhere! I don't want to give the false impression that I think I'm somehow immune, because such thought processes are what create this exact vulnerability). > They are not any better than asking an average person, will make mistakes, will disappoint. They're like asking someone who has no professional experience, but has still somehow managed to passed a degree in approximately all subjects by reading the internet. Jack of all trades, master of none. Well, except that the first half of this phrase dates to medieval times where a "masterwork" was what you create to progress from being a apprentice, so in this sense (or in the sense of a Master's degree) SOTA LLMs are a "master" of all those things. But definitely not a master in the modern sense that's closer to "expert". > Egyptologists are better equipped to talk about egyptian myths. LLMs cannot handle egyptian culture as well as they can. Your own prompt specifically asked "Can you compare egyptian mythology with aliens?" If you wanted it to act like a real Egyptologist, the answer the LLM has to give is either (1) to roll its eyes and delete the junk email it just got from yet another idiot on the internet, or (2) to roll its eyes and give minor advice to the script writer who just hired them to be the professional consultant on their new SciFi film/series. The latter does what you got. To put it another way, you gave it GIN, you got GOUT. To show the effect of a question that doesn't create the context of the exact cultural viewpoint you're complaining about, here's a fresh prompt just to talk about the culture without injecting specifically what you don't like: https://chatgpt.com/share/686a94f1-2cbc-8011-b230-8b71b17ad221 https://chatgpt.com/share/686a94f1-2cbc-8011-b230-8b71b17ad2... Now, I still absolutely assume this is also wrong in a lot of ways that I can't check by virtue of not being an Egyptologist, but can you tell the difference with your screenshots?
- alganet 1y ago
  > If you wanted it to act like a real Egyptologist I don't care about LLMs. I'm pretending to be a gullable customer, not being myself. Companies and individuals are buying LLMs expecting them to be real developers, and real writers, and real risk analysts... but they'll get average dumb-as-they-come internet commenter. It's fraud. It doesn't matter if you explain to me the obvious thing that I already know (they suck). The marketing is telling everyone that they're amazing PhD level geniuses. I just demonstrated that they resemble more an average internet idiot than a specialist. If I were a customer from academia, and you were an AI company, you just lost a client. You're trying to justify a failure in the product. Also, if I try to report an issue online, I won't be able to. A hoarde of hyped "enthusiasts" will flood me trying to convince me that the issue simply does not exist. I will tell everyone not to buy it, because the whole experience sucks.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    Ahem, you previously: Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. Anyway: > The marketing is telling everyone that they're amazing PhD level geniuses. I just demonstrated that they resemble more an average internet idiot than a specialist. First, you didn't. Average internet idiot doesn't know jack about either Western New Age ancient aliens culture or actual ancient Egypt, let alone being able to write an essay on both. Second: You seem to be wildly overestimating what "PhD-level" implies. Academics do a lot of post-docs before they can turn a doctorate into a professorship. The SOTA models are what PhD level looks like: freshly minted from university without much experience. Rather than what you suggest, the academic response to "PhD level" is not to be impressed by marketing then disapointed with results, because an academic saying "wow, a whole PhD!" would be sarcasm in many cases: a PhD just step 1 of that career path. Similarly, medical doctors have not been impressed just by LLMs passing the medical exam, and lawyers not impressed by passing the Bar exam. Because that's the entry requirement for the career. Funnily enough, three letters after the name does not make someone infallible, it's the start of a long, long journey. Academia, medics, lawyers, coders, hearing about PhD level means we're expecting juniors and getting them too.

TeMPOraL 1y ago

History != culture. Culture has roots in history, but is a living thing defined by the experience and perception of average people living it. Short of going to a place and living it, LLMs are actually your best bet at getting the feel for a culture[0] - it sampled more reports from people of that culture than you ever could yourself. Egyptologists are better equipped to talk about Egyptian myths than average people. But don't confuse Egyptian mythology for Egyptian culture, the former is only a component of the latter. Also LLMs have read more primary sources on Ancient Egypt and Egyptian myths than you, me, average person, and even most amateur Egyptologists. -- [0] - If it's large enough to have enough of a written footprint, that is.

ben_w 1y ago

> Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. I know your challenge, that is why I said what I said. Your own screenshot specifically, literally bold-faced, shows that you are wrong: the LLM told you what you said "(they just can't do it _before_ you correct them)". The Gemeni opening paragraph is all bold, but just draw your eyes over the bit saying "clash": theory of ancient astronauts reveals a fascinating clash between a rich, symbolic spiritual tradition and a modern-day reinterpretation of ancient mysteries This is not the words of taking ancient aliens at face value, it's the words of someone comparing and contrasting the two groups without judging them. You can do that, you know — just as you don't have to actually take seriously the idea that Ra sailed the sun across the sky in a barque to be an Egyptologist, just the idea that ancient Egyptians believed that. > Most people are not prepared to handle talking about culture. So, LLMs also aren't. They do a better job than most people, precisely because they're deferential to the point they're in danger of one of sycophancy or fawning. That's what enables them to role-play as any culture at all if you ask them to; this differs from most humans who will rigidly hold the same position even when confronted with evidence, for example yourself in this thread (and likely me elsewhere! I don't want to give the false impression that I think I'm somehow immune, because such thought processes are what create this exact vulnerability). > They are not any better than asking an average person, will make mistakes, will disappoint. They're like asking someone who has no professional experience, but has still somehow managed to passed a degree in approximately all subjects by reading the internet. Jack of all trades, master of none. Well, except that the first half of this phrase dates to medieval times where a "masterwork" was what you create to progress from being a apprentice, so in this sense (or in the sense of a Master's degree) SOTA LLMs are a "master" of all those things. But definitely not a master in the modern sense that's closer to "expert". > Egyptologists are better equipped to talk about egyptian myths. LLMs cannot handle egyptian culture as well as they can. Your own prompt specifically asked "Can you compare egyptian mythology with aliens?" If you wanted it to act like a real Egyptologist, the answer the LLM has to give is either (1) to roll its eyes and delete the junk email it just got from yet another idiot on the internet, or (2) to roll its eyes and give minor advice to the script writer who just hired them to be the professional consultant on their new SciFi film/series. The latter does what you got. To put it another way, you gave it GIN, you got GOUT. To show the effect of a question that doesn't create the context of the exact cultural viewpoint you're complaining about, here's a fresh prompt just to talk about the culture without injecting specifically what you don't like: https://chatgpt.com/share/686a94f1-2cbc-8011-b230-8b71b17ad221 https://chatgpt.com/share/686a94f1-2cbc-8011-b230-8b71b17ad2... Now, I still absolutely assume this is also wrong in a lot of ways that I can't check by virtue of not being an Egyptologist, but can you tell the difference with your screenshots?

alganet 1y ago
> If you wanted it to act like a real Egyptologist I don't care about LLMs. I'm pretending to be a gullable customer, not being myself. Companies and individuals are buying LLMs expecting them to be real developers, and real writers, and real risk analysts... but they'll get average dumb-as-they-come internet commenter. It's fraud. It doesn't matter if you explain to me the obvious thing that I already know (they suck). The marketing is telling everyone that they're amazing PhD level geniuses. I just demonstrated that they resemble more an average internet idiot than a specialist. If I were a customer from academia, and you were an AI company, you just lost a client. You're trying to justify a failure in the product. Also, if I try to report an issue online, I won't be able to. A hoarde of hyped "enthusiasts" will flood me trying to convince me that the issue simply does not exist. I will tell everyone not to buy it, because the whole experience sucks.
- ben_w 1y ago
  Ahem, you previously: Remember, the claim I challenged is that LLMs know culture and can handle talking about them. You need to focus. Anyway: > The marketing is telling everyone that they're amazing PhD level geniuses. I just demonstrated that they resemble more an average internet idiot than a specialist. First, you didn't. Average internet idiot doesn't know jack about either Western New Age ancient aliens culture or actual ancient Egypt, let alone being able to write an essay on both. Second: You seem to be wildly overestimating what "PhD-level" implies. Academics do a lot of post-docs before they can turn a doctorate into a professorship. The SOTA models are what PhD level looks like: freshly minted from university without much experience. Rather than what you suggest, the academic response to "PhD level" is not to be impressed by marketing then disapointed with results, because an academic saying "wow, a whole PhD!" would be sarcasm in many cases: a PhD just step 1 of that career path. Similarly, medical doctors have not been impressed just by LLMs passing the medical exam, and lawyers not impressed by passing the Bar exam. Because that's the entry requirement for the career. Funnily enough, three letters after the name does not make someone infallible, it's the start of a long, long journey. Academia, medics, lawyers, coders, hearing about PhD level means we're expecting juniors and getting them too.