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> But things aren't always equal, and if the first submission was from a user who submits a lot and gets many big front page hits, we don't feel the need to jus

> But things aren't always equal, and if the first submission was from a user who submits a lot and gets many big front page hits, we don't feel the need to just hand them more karma and will happily give the points to a less karma-rich user who submitted it later, especially if theirs is already on the front page. I know dang has said that generated comments and bots are against HN guidelines previously, but should I read what you're not saying between the lines, and should I interpret it as consistent with HN policy to use scripts or bots to post to HN? Because that seems to be happening in this case, and keeps coming up, because it keeps happening. After a certain point, inaction is a choice and a policy by proxy. inb4 someone asks what it is and what it is that is happening; if you don't already know, ask somebody else, and if you're not a mod on HN, I'll likely consider your response a concern troll if it isn't on topic for this thread or attempts to derail it, which I fully expect to happen, but I am constantly willing to be surprised, and often am on this site. As the previous construction was rather strained, I'll say it plainly: Is it okay, as in, consistent with and affirming the HN guidelines, to use scripts/bots to post to HN, or not? My reading tells me no.

tomhow 1y ago
We ban bots that submit a lot of spam or other content that’s a bad fit for HN. We ban LLM-comment bots because we want the discussions to be between humans sharing original human ideas. If someone has written a script that finds and submits articles that are good for HN, I don’t see why we should ban them. We can use human judgment to decide which of their posts should be rewarded or downranked; we’re doing manual curation all the time anyway.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  > We ban bots that submit a lot of spam or other content that’s a bad fit for HN. We ban LLM-comment bots because we want the discussions to be between humans sharing original human ideas. > If someone has written a script that finds and submits articles that are good for HN, I don’t see why we should ban them. We can use human judgment to decide which of their posts should be rewarded or downranked; we’re doing manual curation all the time anyway. You should ban them for the same reason generated comments are banned. This is not a great outcome for HN, so I don't expect this to actually occur, mind you! I just think that the status quo unfairly advantages those who have already demonstrated that they're actively and successfully gaming the system. If the points don't matter, then script users' contributions matter even less than a human-initiated post, so why not run the script in-house under an official username at that point. This arm's length scripted behavior leaves a bad taste after Digg and every other site that has done this, or allowed others to do it. Either the content is user-submitted, or it isn't. Bots aren't people.
  - tomhow 1y ago
    I don’t know what kind of game is going on when you quote my whole comment like this. That’s not a norm on HN. We don’t treat them the same because they don’t have the same effects and aren’t the same thing. They’d be the same thing if someone made a bot to write whole articles and post them as submissions. Of course we’d ban that, and indeed we have banned bots like that, or at least banned sites whose contents are mostly LLM-generated, along with the accounts that submitted them. If a user’s script finds and submits good articles that attract many upvotes and stimulate good discussions, it would be a net loss for HN to ban them.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      It's not a game, but many people try to derail the conversation when I bring this up. I want to have a record of what was said when I reply when I think it's worth quoting, so as there is no ambiguity as to what was said or what I was replying to. > If a user’s script finds and submits good articles that attract many upvotes and stimulate good discussions, it would be a net loss for HN to ban them. I agree. So why not run that script in-house, so that we have transparency about the account being scripted? Or, the script user could say something to that effect in their bio. Or, they could use a dedicated scripting account. Anything would be better than this, because it's a bad look for HN, and I'm tired of talking about it, but it's an issue with values to allow scripted submissions as long as they're URLs, but not if they're comments. It's a distinction without a difference to my view. That being said, I can't disagree that they find good content. I am fine with it being a quirk of the rules that scripts and bots are allowed. I don't think it's what's best for HN, and I don't think that it's the status quo, but as you say, you do a lot of manual intervention. If a script user is making posts that are good, that is reducing your workload, so I think you may be close enough to the situation to care much more than I do, and so I take your view to heart and trust your judgement that it's not a problem to you or HN in your view, but I think differently, and I don't know what you know. If I did know what you do know, I'm willing to believe I would think as you do, so I don't mean to accuse or blame, or find fault. I like the topic because after a certain point, generated comments and posts may be indistinguishable from other HN posts, which would be weird, but I would be okay with that as long as the humans remain and are willing to curiously engage with each other. I'm not really anti-AI at all, I just find the guidelines rather helpful, and yet I hate to be a scold. Please don't interpret this thread as critical of HN, but rather bemused by HN.
- Tomte 1y ago
  I disagree with aspenmeyer violently on all those fairness issues that came up a few weeks ago in the similar discussion, but I think he‘s right with pushing back on this in general. I am a very active HN user and was totally surprised by the declaration that submission bots are fine with you. It goes against pretty much all earlier communication (which, in fairness, was usually about comment bots), but I think in the past my submission behavior was repeatedly ruled okay when challenged by other users, because I‘m submitting manually. I do feel I‘m losing interest a bit when we‘re all just firing scripts. Manual submission at least makes you care enough to spend those seconds, bot submissions mean nobody cares anymore because you can just fling shit and see what sticks. And maybe we high-volume submitters should even be reigned in more. (Also it feels unfriendly towards lobste.rs, when HN is effectively just bulk copying their submissions.)
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    Thanks for this. I think you make good points, and I apologize if I came off as hostile toward you directly or indirectly in that other thread. The closest I have come to scripted submissions is using the HN provided bookmarklet, and even that felt like scripting to me. I'm not a purist about this, but the inconsistency feels strange to me too, and I would rather not have scripts be the primary posting or comment method, but please keep the faith with me here on HN. If we don't make an effort and intention to care and stay here despite bad calls by refs, we'll just have to take our ball and go home, but for many, they don't have another home like HN, so that would be a net loss for them. We owe it to ourselves and each other to show up where we want to effect change that wouldn't happen without our presence and involvement. That's what user generated content is all about!
  - tptacek 1y ago
    I don't know why this would matter, re: lobste.rs; it's two sites with the same remit and different groups of users, of course they're going to share stories. It feels like this site can always use strong incentives for better, more informed, and more civil conversation in threads. But it doesn't need much incentive to get good stories posted; that happens organically. The simplest solution here would be to eliminate "karma" outright.

tomhow 1y ago

We ban bots that submit a lot of spam or other content that’s a bad fit for HN. We ban LLM-comment bots because we want the discussions to be between humans sharing original human ideas. If someone has written a script that finds and submits articles that are good for HN, I don’t see why we should ban them. We can use human judgment to decide which of their posts should be rewarded or downranked; we’re doing manual curation all the time anyway.

aspenmayer 1y ago
> We ban bots that submit a lot of spam or other content that’s a bad fit for HN. We ban LLM-comment bots because we want the discussions to be between humans sharing original human ideas. > If someone has written a script that finds and submits articles that are good for HN, I don’t see why we should ban them. We can use human judgment to decide which of their posts should be rewarded or downranked; we’re doing manual curation all the time anyway. You should ban them for the same reason generated comments are banned. This is not a great outcome for HN, so I don't expect this to actually occur, mind you! I just think that the status quo unfairly advantages those who have already demonstrated that they're actively and successfully gaming the system. If the points don't matter, then script users' contributions matter even less than a human-initiated post, so why not run the script in-house under an official username at that point. This arm's length scripted behavior leaves a bad taste after Digg and every other site that has done this, or allowed others to do it. Either the content is user-submitted, or it isn't. Bots aren't people.
- tomhow 1y ago
  I don’t know what kind of game is going on when you quote my whole comment like this. That’s not a norm on HN. We don’t treat them the same because they don’t have the same effects and aren’t the same thing. They’d be the same thing if someone made a bot to write whole articles and post them as submissions. Of course we’d ban that, and indeed we have banned bots like that, or at least banned sites whose contents are mostly LLM-generated, along with the accounts that submitted them. If a user’s script finds and submits good articles that attract many upvotes and stimulate good discussions, it would be a net loss for HN to ban them.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    It's not a game, but many people try to derail the conversation when I bring this up. I want to have a record of what was said when I reply when I think it's worth quoting, so as there is no ambiguity as to what was said or what I was replying to. > If a user’s script finds and submits good articles that attract many upvotes and stimulate good discussions, it would be a net loss for HN to ban them. I agree. So why not run that script in-house, so that we have transparency about the account being scripted? Or, the script user could say something to that effect in their bio. Or, they could use a dedicated scripting account. Anything would be better than this, because it's a bad look for HN, and I'm tired of talking about it, but it's an issue with values to allow scripted submissions as long as they're URLs, but not if they're comments. It's a distinction without a difference to my view. That being said, I can't disagree that they find good content. I am fine with it being a quirk of the rules that scripts and bots are allowed. I don't think it's what's best for HN, and I don't think that it's the status quo, but as you say, you do a lot of manual intervention. If a script user is making posts that are good, that is reducing your workload, so I think you may be close enough to the situation to care much more than I do, and so I take your view to heart and trust your judgement that it's not a problem to you or HN in your view, but I think differently, and I don't know what you know. If I did know what you do know, I'm willing to believe I would think as you do, so I don't mean to accuse or blame, or find fault. I like the topic because after a certain point, generated comments and posts may be indistinguishable from other HN posts, which would be weird, but I would be okay with that as long as the humans remain and are willing to curiously engage with each other. I'm not really anti-AI at all, I just find the guidelines rather helpful, and yet I hate to be a scold. Please don't interpret this thread as critical of HN, but rather bemused by HN.
Tomte 1y ago
I disagree with aspenmeyer violently on all those fairness issues that came up a few weeks ago in the similar discussion, but I think he‘s right with pushing back on this in general. I am a very active HN user and was totally surprised by the declaration that submission bots are fine with you. It goes against pretty much all earlier communication (which, in fairness, was usually about comment bots), but I think in the past my submission behavior was repeatedly ruled okay when challenged by other users, because I‘m submitting manually. I do feel I‘m losing interest a bit when we‘re all just firing scripts. Manual submission at least makes you care enough to spend those seconds, bot submissions mean nobody cares anymore because you can just fling shit and see what sticks. And maybe we high-volume submitters should even be reigned in more. (Also it feels unfriendly towards lobste.rs, when HN is effectively just bulk copying their submissions.)
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  Thanks for this. I think you make good points, and I apologize if I came off as hostile toward you directly or indirectly in that other thread. The closest I have come to scripted submissions is using the HN provided bookmarklet, and even that felt like scripting to me. I'm not a purist about this, but the inconsistency feels strange to me too, and I would rather not have scripts be the primary posting or comment method, but please keep the faith with me here on HN. If we don't make an effort and intention to care and stay here despite bad calls by refs, we'll just have to take our ball and go home, but for many, they don't have another home like HN, so that would be a net loss for them. We owe it to ourselves and each other to show up where we want to effect change that wouldn't happen without our presence and involvement. That's what user generated content is all about!
- tptacek 1y ago
  I don't know why this would matter, re: lobste.rs; it's two sites with the same remit and different groups of users, of course they're going to share stories. It feels like this site can always use strong incentives for better, more informed, and more civil conversation in threads. But it doesn't need much incentive to get good stories posted; that happens organically. The simplest solution here would be to eliminate "karma" outright.