7 ms·

> My fellow Australians all feel a bit shit about the introduction of tipping in paywave and food service. That's unaustralian. We have legally enforced minimum

by rr808 1y ago

> My fellow Australians all feel a bit shit about the introduction of tipping in paywave and food service. That's unaustralian. We have legally enforced minimum wages and penalty rates. Turn that feature off. I think non-Americans need to take a stand against this. Refuse all tipping. Its a slippery slope - I know these guys are underpaid but if you start tipping the wages will just drop and we're all worse off.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
nilamo 1y ago
Now that tips are tax free in the USA, they are unlikely to be going away.
- CuriouslyC 1y ago
  Sadly, like Steve Buscemi, I'm going to have to look like an asshole to stand up for my principles. Mostly it means I'm not going to eat out.
  - tempodox 1y ago
    Sometimes you do have to have the courage to look like an asshole. But eating out is maybe not worth it.
- Y-bar 1y ago
  If tips are no longer taxed, does that mean that they no longer count towards medicare, sick pay, pensions and such?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - SpaceNoodled 1y ago
    Surely. Nothing kind is done for kindness' sake by these cretins.
  - immibis 1y ago
    They abolished all those things so the question is moot.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - greyface- 1y ago
    It's structured as a federal income tax deduction, capped at $25k, and does not reduce reportable payroll or gross income. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/text#:~:text=SEC.%2070201.%20NO%20TAX%20ON%20TIPS.,-(a)%20Deduction%20Allowed https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/te...
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- quickthrowman 1y ago
  I’m going to start tipping 10% now, if I get yelled at by waitstaff I’ll mention the tax break and explain they’re receiving the same tip as they would’ve received prior to the tax break. I’m sick of being shaken down everywhere I go for tip money. I suspect I’m not the only one who will be modifying my tipping behavior.
  - southernplaces7 1y ago
    Do waitstaff where you live actually have a tendency of yelling at people who "only" tip 10%? Honestly curious. That's one sick tendency if so. if I had anyone at all nag me over tipping them more than that as if it were something you're supposed to automatically do, id flat out tell them to fuck off without a shred of guilt. Luckily it's not so ingrained where I live.
    - garbawarb 1y ago
      Yeah... 10% is my usual tip and nobody's ever yelled at me, confronted me, or responsed in any way. I'm sure it's happened once to someone somewhere at some point in time but this expectation that you're going to get confronted is silly. Humans are non-confrontational by default.
- amy214 1y ago
  I personally thought tax-free tips is a fine idea. Who are we kidding ourselves? Where do all those cash tips go? Not on the tax return, that's for sure.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Workaccount2 1y ago
Here is the core problem laid out: 1.) Owner needs workers and wants to make the position attractive. 2.) Owner is given the option to enable tips, and entice works with "Pay, plus tips!" 3.) Owner doesn't pay tips, patrons do. 4.) Workers blame patrons, not owner, for not tipping. 5.) Patrons feel guilty and tip. Workers make pretty good money from this, and enjoy the job more. In a way it's kind of like a social mind virus, where the workers and owners benefit, and the patrons feel pain for not going along with it. The only fix I can come up with is a law that tips can only be solicited after a service has been rendered. And entering something into a computer is not a service.
- lazystar 1y ago
  as someone who survived on tips for 2 1/2 years while studying comp sci, you're missing one key detail. tips introduce a situation where harder/faster-paced workers get a higher pay per hour than workers with average productivity. a pizza driver that optimizes their routes and memorizes stop light patterns in their delivery zone will get more deliveries per hour than that of a new hire. so even though they work the same number of hours, the higher skilled driver earns more because they get more tips. this "work harder => more pay" incentive is pretty unique in the industry; in manual labor jobs where each day has a set limit on the amount of work that can be completed, like grocery merchandising, workers that work harder get paid less than average workers. stock incentives are the closest comparison, but it's too far removed from the individual worker's output when the company's size grows above 100 employees. the point is, part of the problem is the lack of other incentives that reward the hardest/best skilled workers.
  - tayo42 1y ago
    If more pizzas per hour is important then who ever is running the pizza place should be the one incentivizing that, not customers.
    - lazystar 1y ago
      there's been attempts to do just that, but it doesnt work because tipping is engrained in the surrounding culture, which exists outside of the pizza place's control. a single store cannot fix the tipping problem on their own; it has to be a cultural shift towards a better system that similarly rewards harder working individuals.
chrsw 1y ago
I'm American. This is how capitalism is supposed to work. It's supposed to seep into every crevice of society and pull money out of the poorest, weakest people and into the hands of the richest and strongest. This isn't a coincidence, it is in fact the most important aspect of the system. Tipping went from some generous gesture to recognize exceptional service and it's turned into a mandatory, arm-twisting shakedown by businesses that simply do not want to pay their employees. Not just avoid paying a living wage (those days are long gone) but not even a _minimum_ wage. Many people involved in or invested in the restaurant businesses wouldn't have thought about getting in if they had to pay employees for an honest day's work. Many restaurants these days aren't just local mom and pop family run businesses but large corporations who own many franchises and operate in the billions of dollars yet people like you and I are expected to pay most of the wages of the servers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darden_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darden_Restaurants Sure, you can never eat out or only eat at locally owned small businesses. But that's just one small slice of society. The only realistic solution for many of us is to try to run the rat race faster.
- benreesman 1y ago
  As an American who agrees with you that this is a perennial failure mode for our culture and that this is by far the worst I've seen it in decades (I was a kid for "...government is the problem"), I still always remind everyone that it doesn't have to be this way, it wasn't this way 20 years ago, it was trending bad but not like this ten years ago, and that old proverb (Chinese I think and I'm probably butchering it) is spot on: "every step into a dark forest is a step you'll have to take to see the sun, but you have counted your steps". Markets are great when they are well administered by competent and uncorrupted authority. And this is not an oxymoron! Brooksley Born should win the Nobel Peace Prize or something, she saw the road ahead and gave everything in a bitter battle against Clinton's goons and if we hadn't kneecapped her we wouldn't be here today. More recently Lina Khan was a one-woman nightmare calamity for scammers, thieves, and other assorted bottom dwellers, and if Trump's goons hadn't had their way she'be ramming data privacy laws so far up FAANG's ass that Lt Colonel Boz would think he actually had been through legit basic. The system can work, we get excellent people in charge of the important stuff with some frequency, but we have got to drop this red/blue crap and get behind leaders like the ones I mentioned or this goes one fucking way. And there's a pretty optimistic message not in what George wrote, but that people like George are starting to ask if they're the baddies. He's always been brilliant but I was starting to wonder if he had gone TESCREAL on us, and I think we can see he (metaphorically) sobered up off the kool aid. If he can, idk, maybe Lex can, maybe pmarca can. If those guys took a cold shower? The world changes that day.
reaperducer 1y ago
I think non-Americans need to take a stand against this. Refuse all tipping. The custom of tipping came to America from Europe after the First World War, and tipping was seen as deeply un-American until the 1950's. It is sometimes mentioned in films and radio dramas of the period. See the Bettie Davis movie Petrified Forest for one example.
renewiltord 1y ago
Tipping is just a tax on losers. My friends were all about how they always tip and that’s why they get Ubers faster but then it turns out I never tip and I get them in the same time. I’m a regular at this bakery / coffee store and I buy a doughnut there every day and I never tip. You can just do things.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dwaltrip 1y ago
  Do you really view people who tip as “losers”? Do your friends know you think of them that way? What a depressing way to live…
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    My friends are secure happy people. They laugh off banter easily. It’s part of why we’re all friends and all doing well in life.
    - dwaltrip 1y ago
      Gotcha, I guess I missed the playful wink ;)
RankingMember 1y ago
I know we've got plenty of problems on our plate, but Americans need to keep trying to push this crap out domestically too.

by rr808 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

nilamo 1y ago

Now that tips are tax free in the USA, they are unlikely to be going away.

CuriouslyC 1y ago
Sadly, like Steve Buscemi, I'm going to have to look like an asshole to stand up for my principles. Mostly it means I'm not going to eat out.
- tempodox 1y ago
  Sometimes you do have to have the courage to look like an asshole. But eating out is maybe not worth it.
Y-bar 1y ago
If tips are no longer taxed, does that mean that they no longer count towards medicare, sick pay, pensions and such?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- SpaceNoodled 1y ago
  Surely. Nothing kind is done for kindness' sake by these cretins.
- immibis 1y ago
  They abolished all those things so the question is moot.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- greyface- 1y ago
  It's structured as a federal income tax deduction, capped at $25k, and does not reduce reportable payroll or gross income. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/text#:~:text=SEC.%2070201.%20NO%20TAX%20ON%20TIPS.,-(a)%20Deduction%20Allowed https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/te...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
quickthrowman 1y ago
I’m going to start tipping 10% now, if I get yelled at by waitstaff I’ll mention the tax break and explain they’re receiving the same tip as they would’ve received prior to the tax break. I’m sick of being shaken down everywhere I go for tip money. I suspect I’m not the only one who will be modifying my tipping behavior.
- southernplaces7 1y ago
  Do waitstaff where you live actually have a tendency of yelling at people who "only" tip 10%? Honestly curious. That's one sick tendency if so. if I had anyone at all nag me over tipping them more than that as if it were something you're supposed to automatically do, id flat out tell them to fuck off without a shred of guilt. Luckily it's not so ingrained where I live.
  - garbawarb 1y ago
    Yeah... 10% is my usual tip and nobody's ever yelled at me, confronted me, or responsed in any way. I'm sure it's happened once to someone somewhere at some point in time but this expectation that you're going to get confronted is silly. Humans are non-confrontational by default.
amy214 1y ago
I personally thought tax-free tips is a fine idea. Who are we kidding ourselves? Where do all those cash tips go? Not on the tax return, that's for sure.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

Workaccount2 1y ago

Here is the core problem laid out: 1.) Owner needs workers and wants to make the position attractive. 2.) Owner is given the option to enable tips, and entice works with "Pay, plus tips!" 3.) Owner doesn't pay tips, patrons do. 4.) Workers blame patrons, not owner, for not tipping. 5.) Patrons feel guilty and tip. Workers make pretty good money from this, and enjoy the job more. In a way it's kind of like a social mind virus, where the workers and owners benefit, and the patrons feel pain for not going along with it. The only fix I can come up with is a law that tips can only be solicited after a service has been rendered. And entering something into a computer is not a service.

lazystar 1y ago
as someone who survived on tips for 2 1/2 years while studying comp sci, you're missing one key detail. tips introduce a situation where harder/faster-paced workers get a higher pay per hour than workers with average productivity. a pizza driver that optimizes their routes and memorizes stop light patterns in their delivery zone will get more deliveries per hour than that of a new hire. so even though they work the same number of hours, the higher skilled driver earns more because they get more tips. this "work harder => more pay" incentive is pretty unique in the industry; in manual labor jobs where each day has a set limit on the amount of work that can be completed, like grocery merchandising, workers that work harder get paid less than average workers. stock incentives are the closest comparison, but it's too far removed from the individual worker's output when the company's size grows above 100 employees. the point is, part of the problem is the lack of other incentives that reward the hardest/best skilled workers.
- tayo42 1y ago
  If more pizzas per hour is important then who ever is running the pizza place should be the one incentivizing that, not customers.
  - lazystar 1y ago
    there's been attempts to do just that, but it doesnt work because tipping is engrained in the surrounding culture, which exists outside of the pizza place's control. a single store cannot fix the tipping problem on their own; it has to be a cultural shift towards a better system that similarly rewards harder working individuals.

chrsw 1y ago

I'm American. This is how capitalism is supposed to work. It's supposed to seep into every crevice of society and pull money out of the poorest, weakest people and into the hands of the richest and strongest. This isn't a coincidence, it is in fact the most important aspect of the system. Tipping went from some generous gesture to recognize exceptional service and it's turned into a mandatory, arm-twisting shakedown by businesses that simply do not want to pay their employees. Not just avoid paying a living wage (those days are long gone) but not even a _minimum_ wage. Many people involved in or invested in the restaurant businesses wouldn't have thought about getting in if they had to pay employees for an honest day's work. Many restaurants these days aren't just local mom and pop family run businesses but large corporations who own many franchises and operate in the billions of dollars yet people like you and I are expected to pay most of the wages of the servers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darden_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darden_Restaurants Sure, you can never eat out or only eat at locally owned small businesses. But that's just one small slice of society. The only realistic solution for many of us is to try to run the rat race faster.

benreesman 1y ago
As an American who agrees with you that this is a perennial failure mode for our culture and that this is by far the worst I've seen it in decades (I was a kid for "...government is the problem"), I still always remind everyone that it doesn't have to be this way, it wasn't this way 20 years ago, it was trending bad but not like this ten years ago, and that old proverb (Chinese I think and I'm probably butchering it) is spot on: "every step into a dark forest is a step you'll have to take to see the sun, but you have counted your steps". Markets are great when they are well administered by competent and uncorrupted authority. And this is not an oxymoron! Brooksley Born should win the Nobel Peace Prize or something, she saw the road ahead and gave everything in a bitter battle against Clinton's goons and if we hadn't kneecapped her we wouldn't be here today. More recently Lina Khan was a one-woman nightmare calamity for scammers, thieves, and other assorted bottom dwellers, and if Trump's goons hadn't had their way she'be ramming data privacy laws so far up FAANG's ass that Lt Colonel Boz would think he actually had been through legit basic. The system can work, we get excellent people in charge of the important stuff with some frequency, but we have got to drop this red/blue crap and get behind leaders like the ones I mentioned or this goes one fucking way. And there's a pretty optimistic message not in what George wrote, but that people like George are starting to ask if they're the baddies. He's always been brilliant but I was starting to wonder if he had gone TESCREAL on us, and I think we can see he (metaphorically) sobered up off the kool aid. If he can, idk, maybe Lex can, maybe pmarca can. If those guys took a cold shower? The world changes that day.

reaperducer 1y ago

I think non-Americans need to take a stand against this. Refuse all tipping. The custom of tipping came to America from Europe after the First World War, and tipping was seen as deeply un-American until the 1950's. It is sometimes mentioned in films and radio dramas of the period. See the Bettie Davis movie Petrified Forest for one example.

renewiltord 1y ago

Tipping is just a tax on losers. My friends were all about how they always tip and that’s why they get Ubers faster but then it turns out I never tip and I get them in the same time. I’m a regular at this bakery / coffee store and I buy a doughnut there every day and I never tip. You can just do things.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dwaltrip 1y ago
Do you really view people who tip as “losers”? Do your friends know you think of them that way? What a depressing way to live…
- renewiltord 1y ago
  My friends are secure happy people. They laugh off banter easily. It’s part of why we’re all friends and all doing well in life.
  - dwaltrip 1y ago
    Gotcha, I guess I missed the playful wink ;)

RankingMember 1y ago

I know we've got plenty of problems on our plate, but Americans need to keep trying to push this crap out domestically too.