4 ms·

There are no such things as ‘good guys’ especially for states. States only believe in their own interests and the narrative always go towards the powerful and

There are no such things as ‘good guys’ especially for states. States only believe in their own interests and the narrative always go towards the powerful and the one which won. That’s the fatal flaw in international "justice" and has been from the start. Where were the people who allowed the nuclear bombing of civilians during the Nuremberg trials? Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? Because that’s not justice, merely retribution. Then, you have to considered the role played by secret institutions in democratic countries. Do they serve the citizenship, the national interests (what does that even mean?), the people in power, themselves first and foremost? From history, I wouldn’t trust them very much, even less as a foreigner. Be wary of any institution or person holding power. Check and balance are deeply needed and we should be horrified every times they are being limited or abused. If the UK is still serious about being a liberal democracy, this should have sever consequences. I’m sadly fairly sure it won’t.

Hendrikto 1y ago
> If the UK is still serious about being a liberal democracy They have not been for quite a while. They are the type of country where you go to jail over a meme.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- sofixa 1y ago
  Who went to jail over a meme?
  - exe34 1y ago
    It didn't happen. They're referring to people who incited arson and murder while there was an ongoing race riot (which started on false pretenses to begin with).
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - whyoh 1y ago
    Here are two examples: https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-mocking-transgender-pride-flag/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-george-22122018 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-ge...
    - exe34 1y ago
      > "A trio of Snapchat pranksters aged between 18 and 19 are now having to be protected by police after enraging people with their sick reenactment of the death of George Floyd" It's called protective custody. It's for their own safety.
    - exe34 1y ago
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-62352502 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-62352502 The first one was arrested for questioning because he refused to talk to the police when they first attempted to communicate. He was subsequently released - he never went to jail.
- Xss3 1y ago
  Nobody goes to jail for a meme. Just like in the USA however there are laws about inciting violence and riots and people have been prosecuted for that. The bs you're referring to is likely about the guy that went to jail for tweeting that a hotel of migrants should be burned down...during a race riot near the hotel. Fires were set and people, including those calling for it, were prosecuted.
  - sys_64738 1y ago
    So he went to jail for a Twitter post? In what world can posting something cause you to be imprisoned for 15 months. The only crazier thing is people defending such horrendous laws.
    - Xss3 1y ago
      You do know incitement is illegal in the USA too? Twitter or not, its illegal to ask others to burn people to death.... The twitter post made it to national news because people actually listened to it and set fire to the building while people were inside.
      - sys_64738 1y ago
        One person isn't responsible for other people's actions, no matter what they say. Britain is a draconian society ruled by fear.
        Xss3 1y ago
        ...By that logic so is the USA as incitement isn't protected by the first amendment.
        IAmBroom 1y ago
        So ordering a henchman to kill a rival shouldn't be a crime?
        soco 1y ago
        It's interesting how the freedom of expression argument is always, but really always, used to defend violence and hatred.
dataflow 1y ago
No stance on your conclusion but your arguments are... poor. "Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? Isn't the obvious answer that. Because that’s not justice, merely retribution." No, it's because you're presenting a false dichotomy? It would've obviously come with huge risks, costs, and more deaths. It's not like there was a big red "Deliver Justice" button they could've pressed to deliver justice anywhere anytime for free, and they somehow refused to press it. The world had already been through World War I, and you can imagine they neither wanted to get closer to another one, nor did people want to risk their own deaths or suicide. You can hate the west all you want for not entering the war earlier or whatever else, but at least maybe do it with something a little stronger than a strawman?
nordsieck 1y ago
> States only believe in their own interests and the narrative always go towards the powerful and the one which won. And depressingly, even that isn't true - states are plagued with the principal-agent problem[1], as is basically every organization. --- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...
varjag 1y ago
Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? What do you mean by that? The war had started by attacking the Western nations and the allies. The second front had opened when Germany attacked its former ally nearly 2 years later.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  I suspect this is referring to the United States of America.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
pydry 1y ago
Im not sure it's even that simple. Ive worked for many companies that havent worked in their own self interest. Large organizations captured by small, self interested or ideologically extreme groups often dont. What the state of Israel is doing, for example, is not in its own interest and the untrammeled support given by the west to what it does is definitely not in our self interest.
stefan_ 1y ago
Remember when UK police shot a random foreigner on the tube in the head and no one was prosecuted? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jean_Charles_de_Men...
- Xss3 1y ago
  The commissioner was found guilty...
  - assbuttbuttass 1y ago
    > The commissioner was found guilty, and his office was fined. I'm sure they also gave him a stern talking-to
  - fmajid 1y ago
    The officer in charge, Cressida Dick, was given a slap on the wrist. She was later appointed head of Scotland Yard, where she was a signal failure. The Mayor of London, fed up with her equivocations on malfeasance, corruption and abuses in her force, pushed her out, and was criticized for this by the chief Inspector of constabulary. After all, she was a good old girl from the right family who went to the right school and the Establishment protects its own. There has never been any occurrence of accountability for criminality, malfeasance or gross negligence in the UK for at least 100 years (Aberfan Disaster, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Grenfell, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list goes on).

Hendrikto 1y ago

> If the UK is still serious about being a liberal democracy They have not been for quite a while. They are the type of country where you go to jail over a meme.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sofixa 1y ago
Who went to jail over a meme?
- exe34 1y ago
  It didn't happen. They're referring to people who incited arson and murder while there was an ongoing race riot (which started on false pretenses to begin with).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- whyoh 1y ago
  Here are two examples: https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-mocking-transgender-pride-flag/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-george-22122018 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-ge...
  - exe34 1y ago
    > "A trio of Snapchat pranksters aged between 18 and 19 are now having to be protected by police after enraging people with their sick reenactment of the death of George Floyd" It's called protective custody. It's for their own safety.
  - exe34 1y ago
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-62352502 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-62352502 The first one was arrested for questioning because he refused to talk to the police when they first attempted to communicate. He was subsequently released - he never went to jail.
Xss3 1y ago
Nobody goes to jail for a meme. Just like in the USA however there are laws about inciting violence and riots and people have been prosecuted for that. The bs you're referring to is likely about the guy that went to jail for tweeting that a hotel of migrants should be burned down...during a race riot near the hotel. Fires were set and people, including those calling for it, were prosecuted.
- sys_64738 1y ago
  So he went to jail for a Twitter post? In what world can posting something cause you to be imprisoned for 15 months. The only crazier thing is people defending such horrendous laws.
  - Xss3 1y ago
    You do know incitement is illegal in the USA too? Twitter or not, its illegal to ask others to burn people to death.... The twitter post made it to national news because people actually listened to it and set fire to the building while people were inside.
    - sys_64738 1y ago
      One person isn't responsible for other people's actions, no matter what they say. Britain is a draconian society ruled by fear.
      - Xss3 1y ago
        ...By that logic so is the USA as incitement isn't protected by the first amendment.
      - IAmBroom 1y ago
        So ordering a henchman to kill a rival shouldn't be a crime?
      - soco 1y ago
        It's interesting how the freedom of expression argument is always, but really always, used to defend violence and hatred.

dataflow 1y ago

No stance on your conclusion but your arguments are... poor. "Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? Isn't the obvious answer that. Because that’s not justice, merely retribution." No, it's because you're presenting a false dichotomy? It would've obviously come with huge risks, costs, and more deaths. It's not like there was a big red "Deliver Justice" button they could've pressed to deliver justice anywhere anytime for free, and they somehow refused to press it. The world had already been through World War I, and you can imagine they neither wanted to get closer to another one, nor did people want to risk their own deaths or suicide. You can hate the west all you want for not entering the war earlier or whatever else, but at least maybe do it with something a little stronger than a strawman?

nordsieck 1y ago

> States only believe in their own interests and the narrative always go towards the powerful and the one which won. And depressingly, even that isn't true - states are plagued with the principal-agent problem[1], as is basically every organization. --- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

varjag 1y ago

Why was nothing said about the western nation entering the war so late despite what they knew? What do you mean by that? The war had started by attacking the Western nations and the allies. The second front had opened when Germany attacked its former ally nearly 2 years later.

wizzwizz4 1y ago
I suspect this is referring to the United States of America.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

pydry 1y ago

Im not sure it's even that simple. Ive worked for many companies that havent worked in their own self interest. Large organizations captured by small, self interested or ideologically extreme groups often dont. What the state of Israel is doing, for example, is not in its own interest and the untrammeled support given by the west to what it does is definitely not in our self interest.

stefan_ 1y ago

Remember when UK police shot a random foreigner on the tube in the head and no one was prosecuted? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jean_Charles_de_Men...

Xss3 1y ago
The commissioner was found guilty...
- assbuttbuttass 1y ago
  > The commissioner was found guilty, and his office was fined. I'm sure they also gave him a stern talking-to
- fmajid 1y ago
  The officer in charge, Cressida Dick, was given a slap on the wrist. She was later appointed head of Scotland Yard, where she was a signal failure. The Mayor of London, fed up with her equivocations on malfeasance, corruption and abuses in her force, pushed her out, and was criticized for this by the chief Inspector of constabulary. After all, she was a good old girl from the right family who went to the right school and the Establishment protects its own. There has never been any occurrence of accountability for criminality, malfeasance or gross negligence in the UK for at least 100 years (Aberfan Disaster, Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Grenfell, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list goes on).