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> It's a win-win for everybody but Author Services. Having work that can be edited by a human who understands the concepts –or at least the words— shows a grea

> It's a win-win for everybody but Author Services. Having work that can be edited by a human who understands the concepts –or at least the words— shows a great depth of usefulness to the work itself. Running your rough draft in one language through an LLM so it appears, at surface glance, to be similar to a publication that a team of humans had been involved in doesn't actually provide value to the author or the reader. Now the author has a paper they cannot say they wrote (or indeed, say who wrote it) and the reader cannot assume that what they read was intended to mean what it now means in English. If anything, people who write papers in another language to be published in English should be leaning more than ever on human editors and quality assurance measures, not slop machines that hallucinate with good grammar.

DontBreakAlex 1y ago
I find it quite insulting that you seem to think that non-native english speakers are incapable of reading the outputs of LLMs to asses if it still means what they intended to say.
- perching_aix 1y ago
  Why? I don't have academic paper publishing peers with bad language skills, but I do have colleagues with bad language skills, and the misunderstandings and petty catfights they get themselves into over poorly worded sentences, missing linguistic cues, and misinterpretations, is utterly bonkers. All otherwise perfectly smart capable people, they just happen to have this as a gap in their skillset. And no, they don't notice if transformative details get added in or left out.
  - leakycap 1y ago
    > I do have colleagues with bad language skills, and the misunderstandings and petty catfights they get themselves into over poorly worded sentences, missing linguistic cues, and misinterpretations, is utterly bonkers. Is this a widespread systemic issue within the organization, or do you work somewhere large enough that it is easy to find examples like this due to the number of people involved? If it is the former, I would not want to work somewhere that people get into petty catfights over editing and have no abiity to write a sentence or understand linguistic cues. I don't remember working anywhere I would describe in the way you do in your second paragraph. > And no, they don't notice if transformative details get added in or left out. I guess I don't have to tell you not to select them as the people to review your work output? Again, all the examples I'm reading make me think it would be beneficial for folks to include competent team members or external support for projects that will be published in a language you don't speak natively.
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      > Is this a widespread systemic issue within the organization, or do you work somewhere large enough that it is easy to find examples like this due to the number of people involved? Can't tell you for sure (would require me to have comprehensive knowledge of the language skills around the company). I do know a few folks with proper language skills, but they're a rarity (and I treasure them greatly). Could definitely be just my neck of the woods in the company being like this. > If it is the former, I would not want to work somewhere [like that where] (...) Yeah, it's not great. The way I solved this was by simply not caring and just talking to them in proper English, hammering them until they provide me (and each other) with enough cross-verifiable information that thus definitely cannot be wrong (or will be wrong in a very defendable way), with an additional serving of double-triple checking everything. Some are annoyed by this, others appreciate it. Such is life I suppose. > I guess I don't have to tell you not to select them as the people to review your work output? I don't really have a choice. I think you might misunderstand what it is that I deliver though. I work with cloud technologies, so while I do sometimes deliver technical writing, most of my output is configuration changes and code. When I speak of language barrier issues, that's about chat, email, and ticket communications. I think that's plenty bad enough to have these kinds of troubles in though, especially when it's managers who are having difficulties.
      - leakycap 1y ago
        > I don't really have a choice. When does your employment contract end?
        perching_aix 1y ago
        Not a fixed contract, so when either side terminates it (I understand the question was rhetorical). Where I live, opportunities are not so plentiful, though I am working on polishing up my CV to compensate. Benefits are decent though, can WFH all the time, so that's also a consideration. Most everywhere they're doing the silly hybrid presence thing now, which would suck (back and joint issues don't mesh too well with having to move around in the office and travel back and forth every (other) day) - maybe moreso than the linguistic landscape that at this point I'm fairly used to. This hesitance to switch is definitely put to the test a lot these days though :)
- leakycap 1y ago
  Telling me you're insulted by my comment makes me question whether it is worth the time to reply. In the spirit of goodwill, let me provide some context that your emotional response might not have given you time to consider: I work in a multilingual healthcare field and my output is often translated into different languages. Forms. Posters. Take-home advice following surgery. We provide all of this in every language where more than about 5% of customers speak that, so English, Vietnamese, Korean, Spanish, Tagalog and Mandarin. In addition to English, I speak and read one of these other languages fluently and have since I was about 9 years old, but I don't live in the culture and don't understand the conveyed meaning of translated health-related phrases. Do you think I use an LLM or an editor that does? No–because that would be silly and could convey information incorrectly to the audience who can only speak that language. If you want to be quite insulted, turn on the news and get a realistic perspective on what is going on in the world. The people hurt by text going through LLMs is going to be those in extreme poverty and minorities subjected to machine generated translations without human review. You're fighting on a site where most of us would likely be on the same side of so many issues. Let's discuss and not make this facebook full of thoughtless responses.
- stackbutterflow 1y ago
  Especially because it's so much easier to understand text than to produce it. I can read difficult authors in a foreign language and understand perfectly but there's no way I could write like them.
  - leakycap 1y ago
    This just tells me you don't work with multiple languages very often. I have spoken a second language fluently since about 9. I produce work that is translated into that language regularly... by a translator. Being able to read words does not means I understand the meaning they convey to a person who only speaks that language. These are scientific papers we're talking about, conveyed meaning is valuable and completely lost when a non-native speaker publishes machine generated output that the writer could not have written themselves.
    - stackbutterflow 1y ago
      This just reminds me to never assumes someone's reality. I speak more than two languages. And I disagree. Papers are read by all type of people, I don't know why you assume scientific papers which are almost all written in English are read solely by native English speakers. People have been doing science in broken English, French, German, Arabic, Latin and more for as long there has been science to be made.
      - leakycap 1y ago
        Sounds like you would be a perfect person to help clear up misunderstandings in texts being translated if your skills are as keen as you describe. You mention being reminded not to assume someone else's reality by our conversation--I would encourage you to also be reminded of the common fallacy where people wildly overestimate their own abilities, especially when it comes to claiming to speak/read/write multiple languages with knowledge akin to a native speaker. It is unfortunately very common to mislead oneself about abilities when you haven't had to rely on that skillset in a real environment. I would venture that you don't regularly work with multiple languages in your work outputs, or you would have likely received feedback by now that could help provide understanding about the nuances of language and communication.
A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
I think you overestimate the extent of Author Services' involvement. It's near nil; there's no back-and-forth; you just send them your article and they send back a version with fewer grammatical/textual errors and correct formatting for the journal. It's a lot like an LLM, just slower and considerably more expensive. Also, you severely underestimate the ability of the authors to edit and verify the correctness of their own work. They wrote it in the first place, after all. They know, better than anybody else, what's important to convey. What's more, this editing step happens before peer review, so if the paper is junk or has glaring errors it'll probably be turned down by most respectable publications. Even the marginal publications won't publish stuff that's really bad.
- leakycap 1y ago
  You're pointing out issues with one departmental service provided by one publishing company. I'm pointing out issues with using any LLM. If you don't like Author Services, use someone else. Involve a coauthor. This is not even a remotely hard problem to solve.
  - auggierose 1y ago
    Yes, it is not hard at all to solve. Just use an LLM.
raincole 1y ago
In my (non-English-speaking) country, paying for an editing service before one submits a paper was very common. Now it's all AI edited. That's not the interesting part though. The interesting part is that the biggest editing service provider here explicitly states it's okay for the clients to send the papers through AI first then buy their service for 'additional human editing.' They even offer cheaper price for papers that are already edited by AI. The irony is not lost on me.
jug 1y ago
Don't LLM's have enough insight in at least the very concepts here? o3 is considered PhD level on this. Maybe not pure math solving since LLM's suck on that, but I wouldn't be quick to doubt the capacity of understanding the advanced concepts and typical wording. Also, this is hopefully not passing through LLM's completely unvetted, but as a crutch to get 80-90% there with minimal effort.

DontBreakAlex 1y ago

I find it quite insulting that you seem to think that non-native english speakers are incapable of reading the outputs of LLMs to asses if it still means what they intended to say.

perching_aix 1y ago
Why? I don't have academic paper publishing peers with bad language skills, but I do have colleagues with bad language skills, and the misunderstandings and petty catfights they get themselves into over poorly worded sentences, missing linguistic cues, and misinterpretations, is utterly bonkers. All otherwise perfectly smart capable people, they just happen to have this as a gap in their skillset. And no, they don't notice if transformative details get added in or left out.
- leakycap 1y ago
  > I do have colleagues with bad language skills, and the misunderstandings and petty catfights they get themselves into over poorly worded sentences, missing linguistic cues, and misinterpretations, is utterly bonkers. Is this a widespread systemic issue within the organization, or do you work somewhere large enough that it is easy to find examples like this due to the number of people involved? If it is the former, I would not want to work somewhere that people get into petty catfights over editing and have no abiity to write a sentence or understand linguistic cues. I don't remember working anywhere I would describe in the way you do in your second paragraph. > And no, they don't notice if transformative details get added in or left out. I guess I don't have to tell you not to select them as the people to review your work output? Again, all the examples I'm reading make me think it would be beneficial for folks to include competent team members or external support for projects that will be published in a language you don't speak natively.
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    > Is this a widespread systemic issue within the organization, or do you work somewhere large enough that it is easy to find examples like this due to the number of people involved? Can't tell you for sure (would require me to have comprehensive knowledge of the language skills around the company). I do know a few folks with proper language skills, but they're a rarity (and I treasure them greatly). Could definitely be just my neck of the woods in the company being like this. > If it is the former, I would not want to work somewhere [like that where] (...) Yeah, it's not great. The way I solved this was by simply not caring and just talking to them in proper English, hammering them until they provide me (and each other) with enough cross-verifiable information that thus definitely cannot be wrong (or will be wrong in a very defendable way), with an additional serving of double-triple checking everything. Some are annoyed by this, others appreciate it. Such is life I suppose. > I guess I don't have to tell you not to select them as the people to review your work output? I don't really have a choice. I think you might misunderstand what it is that I deliver though. I work with cloud technologies, so while I do sometimes deliver technical writing, most of my output is configuration changes and code. When I speak of language barrier issues, that's about chat, email, and ticket communications. I think that's plenty bad enough to have these kinds of troubles in though, especially when it's managers who are having difficulties.
    - leakycap 1y ago
      > I don't really have a choice. When does your employment contract end?
      - perching_aix 1y ago
        Not a fixed contract, so when either side terminates it (I understand the question was rhetorical). Where I live, opportunities are not so plentiful, though I am working on polishing up my CV to compensate. Benefits are decent though, can WFH all the time, so that's also a consideration. Most everywhere they're doing the silly hybrid presence thing now, which would suck (back and joint issues don't mesh too well with having to move around in the office and travel back and forth every (other) day) - maybe moreso than the linguistic landscape that at this point I'm fairly used to. This hesitance to switch is definitely put to the test a lot these days though :)
leakycap 1y ago
Telling me you're insulted by my comment makes me question whether it is worth the time to reply. In the spirit of goodwill, let me provide some context that your emotional response might not have given you time to consider: I work in a multilingual healthcare field and my output is often translated into different languages. Forms. Posters. Take-home advice following surgery. We provide all of this in every language where more than about 5% of customers speak that, so English, Vietnamese, Korean, Spanish, Tagalog and Mandarin. In addition to English, I speak and read one of these other languages fluently and have since I was about 9 years old, but I don't live in the culture and don't understand the conveyed meaning of translated health-related phrases. Do you think I use an LLM or an editor that does? No–because that would be silly and could convey information incorrectly to the audience who can only speak that language. If you want to be quite insulted, turn on the news and get a realistic perspective on what is going on in the world. The people hurt by text going through LLMs is going to be those in extreme poverty and minorities subjected to machine generated translations without human review. You're fighting on a site where most of us would likely be on the same side of so many issues. Let's discuss and not make this facebook full of thoughtless responses.
stackbutterflow 1y ago
Especially because it's so much easier to understand text than to produce it. I can read difficult authors in a foreign language and understand perfectly but there's no way I could write like them.
- leakycap 1y ago
  This just tells me you don't work with multiple languages very often. I have spoken a second language fluently since about 9. I produce work that is translated into that language regularly... by a translator. Being able to read words does not means I understand the meaning they convey to a person who only speaks that language. These are scientific papers we're talking about, conveyed meaning is valuable and completely lost when a non-native speaker publishes machine generated output that the writer could not have written themselves.
  - stackbutterflow 1y ago
    This just reminds me to never assumes someone's reality. I speak more than two languages. And I disagree. Papers are read by all type of people, I don't know why you assume scientific papers which are almost all written in English are read solely by native English speakers. People have been doing science in broken English, French, German, Arabic, Latin and more for as long there has been science to be made.
    - leakycap 1y ago
      Sounds like you would be a perfect person to help clear up misunderstandings in texts being translated if your skills are as keen as you describe. You mention being reminded not to assume someone else's reality by our conversation--I would encourage you to also be reminded of the common fallacy where people wildly overestimate their own abilities, especially when it comes to claiming to speak/read/write multiple languages with knowledge akin to a native speaker. It is unfortunately very common to mislead oneself about abilities when you haven't had to rely on that skillset in a real environment. I would venture that you don't regularly work with multiple languages in your work outputs, or you would have likely received feedback by now that could help provide understanding about the nuances of language and communication.

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago

I think you overestimate the extent of Author Services' involvement. It's near nil; there's no back-and-forth; you just send them your article and they send back a version with fewer grammatical/textual errors and correct formatting for the journal. It's a lot like an LLM, just slower and considerably more expensive. Also, you severely underestimate the ability of the authors to edit and verify the correctness of their own work. They wrote it in the first place, after all. They know, better than anybody else, what's important to convey. What's more, this editing step happens before peer review, so if the paper is junk or has glaring errors it'll probably be turned down by most respectable publications. Even the marginal publications won't publish stuff that's really bad.

leakycap 1y ago
You're pointing out issues with one departmental service provided by one publishing company. I'm pointing out issues with using any LLM. If you don't like Author Services, use someone else. Involve a coauthor. This is not even a remotely hard problem to solve.
- auggierose 1y ago
  Yes, it is not hard at all to solve. Just use an LLM.

raincole 1y ago

In my (non-English-speaking) country, paying for an editing service before one submits a paper was very common. Now it's all AI edited. That's not the interesting part though. The interesting part is that the biggest editing service provider here explicitly states it's okay for the clients to send the papers through AI first then buy their service for 'additional human editing.' They even offer cheaper price for papers that are already edited by AI. The irony is not lost on me.

jug 1y ago

Don't LLM's have enough insight in at least the very concepts here? o3 is considered PhD level on this. Maybe not pure math solving since LLM's suck on that, but I wouldn't be quick to doubt the capacity of understanding the advanced concepts and typical wording. Also, this is hopefully not passing through LLM's completely unvetted, but as a crutch to get 80-90% there with minimal effort.