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> As an example, I can think of one politician who is definitely a systems thinker (who is not nice, but is successful and generally outplays his opponents beca

> As an example, I can think of one politician who is definitely a systems thinker (who is not nice, but is successful and generally outplays his opponents because of it) and ~80% of Hacker News is convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that he's an evil idiot loser who always makes stupid mistakes. Not sure whether you’re talking about the Orange Man, but calling him a systems thinker is a hard sell given the damage his tariffs, defunding, and other nonsense are causing.

pydry 1y ago
i have a feeling that he sometimes listened to advisors who were capable of it, especially during his election campaigns but as you correctly point out the tariff clusterfuck was probably the most poignant example in recent history of where systems thinking was so desperately needed and so obviously lacking. But yea, definitely not him.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>calling him a systems thinker is a hard sell You have a man who was not part of the elite establishment and yet has managed to get wealthy by breaking the law and avoid getting caught, then managed to become president against all odds, twice. Sure, he came from wealth, but plenty of other people came from even more wealth and had way more political connections and failed to become presidents. Hate him all you want, but if achieving all that is not a form of intelligence and system knowledge, I don't know what is.
- nsingh2 1y ago
  He’s definitely a good salesman. People already distrusted the elites and the `deep state` and he marketed himself as the outsider who’d fix things. That still isn’t sufficient evidence in his favor, given everything happening now.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >People already distrusted the elites and the `deep state` and he marketed himself as the outsider who’d fix things. Q: If this was such an obvious slam dunk on how to win the presidency, why didn't the Dems come up with such a candidate? Wouldn't that make them stupider than the Donald for such an obvious oversight of the electorate? >That still isn’t sufficient evidence in his favor, given everything happening now. Managing to become president twice is insuficient evidence?
    - nsingh2 1y ago
      > If this was such an obvious slam dunk on how to win the presidency, why didn't the Dems come up with such a candidate? The Democratic party in it's current state is ineffective & incompetent in many ways. > Managing to become president twice is insufficient evidence? Yes. You are ignoring the damage he is doing now, which is direct evidence against him being a good “systems thinker”
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        "Good system thinker" was obviously meant in a self serving way that benefits himself and his cronies. I assumed that was obvious since we're talking about world leaders here, not nurses. Presidents aren't there to make YOUR life better. All world leaders are cut from the same self serving cloth as you don't get to become a presidential nominee if you're a genuine threat to the establishment.
        nsingh2 1y ago
        These kinds of selfish policies backfire when they cut the ground out from under you. Trump and his cronies live in the US and are predominantly invested there, and undermining the US in the long term also undermines them and their interests. The stability of the US correlates with the stability of their power, I would consider this to be basic systems-thinking on the scale of a nation.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
- samrus 1y ago
  Grifters are systems thinkers but in a limited short sighted way. Their answer to the prisoner dilemma is to betray their partner. The morons who support them dont see why this is not the optimal strategy
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >Grifters are systems thinkers but in a limited short sighted way. For the average voter, the grifts are irelevant since all candidates do it anyway, they just want a candidate that executes on their dissatisfactions with the system and that turned out to be the Donald. Just follow the portfolios of those who funded the campaigns of the presidential winner, it doesn't matter if it's Clinton, Bush, Trump or Obama, all politicians are grifters, since once elected they need to pay back via grifts those who funded their campaigns as that's the main reason wealthy elites spent million for their candidate to win, to get into grifts with the government that make them even richer. >The morons who support them dont see why this is not the optimal strategy What IS the optimal strategy? I think MAGA base is getting what they voted for (mass deportations and shit) so for them IT IS the optimal strategy.
    - benreesman 1y ago
      Right. In 2019, I was like, I am worse off than 4 years ago, the Trump Presidency sucked. But in 2024, I was like, I'm worse off than 4 years ago, the Biden Administration sucked. If you know both sides are going to leave you worse off, it's probably pretty understandable that I'm always mad at the last guy to take a strip off my ass.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      They are gonna be sad about the health care cuts, and the hit to the economy from tariffs and kicking out the folks who do all the shit jobs, though. We'll see how they feel in a year or so.

pydry 1y ago

i have a feeling that he sometimes listened to advisors who were capable of it, especially during his election campaigns but as you correctly point out the tariff clusterfuck was probably the most poignant example in recent history of where systems thinking was so desperately needed and so obviously lacking. But yea, definitely not him.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>calling him a systems thinker is a hard sell You have a man who was not part of the elite establishment and yet has managed to get wealthy by breaking the law and avoid getting caught, then managed to become president against all odds, twice. Sure, he came from wealth, but plenty of other people came from even more wealth and had way more political connections and failed to become presidents. Hate him all you want, but if achieving all that is not a form of intelligence and system knowledge, I don't know what is.

nsingh2 1y ago
He’s definitely a good salesman. People already distrusted the elites and the `deep state` and he marketed himself as the outsider who’d fix things. That still isn’t sufficient evidence in his favor, given everything happening now.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >People already distrusted the elites and the `deep state` and he marketed himself as the outsider who’d fix things. Q: If this was such an obvious slam dunk on how to win the presidency, why didn't the Dems come up with such a candidate? Wouldn't that make them stupider than the Donald for such an obvious oversight of the electorate? >That still isn’t sufficient evidence in his favor, given everything happening now. Managing to become president twice is insuficient evidence?
  - nsingh2 1y ago
    > If this was such an obvious slam dunk on how to win the presidency, why didn't the Dems come up with such a candidate? The Democratic party in it's current state is ineffective & incompetent in many ways. > Managing to become president twice is insufficient evidence? Yes. You are ignoring the damage he is doing now, which is direct evidence against him being a good “systems thinker”
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      "Good system thinker" was obviously meant in a self serving way that benefits himself and his cronies. I assumed that was obvious since we're talking about world leaders here, not nurses. Presidents aren't there to make YOUR life better. All world leaders are cut from the same self serving cloth as you don't get to become a presidential nominee if you're a genuine threat to the establishment.
      - nsingh2 1y ago
        These kinds of selfish policies backfire when they cut the ground out from under you. Trump and his cronies live in the US and are predominantly invested there, and undermining the US in the long term also undermines them and their interests. The stability of the US correlates with the stability of their power, I would consider this to be basic systems-thinking on the scale of a nation.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
samrus 1y ago
Grifters are systems thinkers but in a limited short sighted way. Their answer to the prisoner dilemma is to betray their partner. The morons who support them dont see why this is not the optimal strategy
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Grifters are systems thinkers but in a limited short sighted way. For the average voter, the grifts are irelevant since all candidates do it anyway, they just want a candidate that executes on their dissatisfactions with the system and that turned out to be the Donald. Just follow the portfolios of those who funded the campaigns of the presidential winner, it doesn't matter if it's Clinton, Bush, Trump or Obama, all politicians are grifters, since once elected they need to pay back via grifts those who funded their campaigns as that's the main reason wealthy elites spent million for their candidate to win, to get into grifts with the government that make them even richer. >The morons who support them dont see why this is not the optimal strategy What IS the optimal strategy? I think MAGA base is getting what they voted for (mass deportations and shit) so for them IT IS the optimal strategy.
  - benreesman 1y ago
    Right. In 2019, I was like, I am worse off than 4 years ago, the Trump Presidency sucked. But in 2024, I was like, I'm worse off than 4 years ago, the Biden Administration sucked. If you know both sides are going to leave you worse off, it's probably pretty understandable that I'm always mad at the last guy to take a strip off my ass.
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    They are gonna be sad about the health care cuts, and the hit to the economy from tariffs and kicking out the folks who do all the shit jobs, though. We'll see how they feel in a year or so.