6 ms·

I understand what you’re saying and I can agree with you that the rule of law is important. You are ignoring the fact that the previous admin ignored due proces

by Dig1t 1y ago

I understand what you’re saying and I can agree with you that the rule of law is important. You are ignoring the fact that the previous admin ignored due process for letting them in in the first place, but that was not my original question. You still have not offered any kind of solution other than letting them all stay forever, and at this point the majority of the electorate is more interested in seeing them all go back than making sure that every single one gets their day in court. > You can’t fast-track due process We can make laws and change systems, a serious good faith solution would be to propose changes to the due process to account for this case we keep finding ourselves in where we have 20 million people who need to be processed and a system with no hope of handling them all.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> a serious good faith solution You are free to offer something yourself. I was answering your question: > Do you have a proposed solution other than decades worth of court dates? No, I don’t. At least, not one that doesn’t degrade rule of law. I’m all ears for better solutions but this shit I’m seeing ain’t it.
- aydyn 1y ago
  It kind of sounds like you need to offer a solution not him. Because his side did come up with a solution and are implementing it.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    Some people start abducting anyone off the streets and it’s called a “solution” so other people who don’t like it need to shut up or offer a better one? Well, we are each entitled to our opinion and I don’t agree with that one. Anyway, here’s a better solution: let them stay. I can’t see how that would be nearly as bad as this. For me personally, for my neighbors, for the rust belt, indeed for anybody except those wanting to abuse power.
    - aydyn 1y ago
      I think this conversation is very clearly people speaking past each other. Let's reset. They are asking for a solution that is realistic. Something that is happening right now is, by definition, a realistic outcome. "Let everyone stay" is not a realistic solution for obvious reasons.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
        > They are asking for a solution that is realistic. Indeed, they asked for “a good faith solution to the problem other than just letting them all stay here forever” and I explicitly said I did not have this. I also see them and you saying “someone” should come up with a solution and, failing to find one yourselves, say deportation without any court hearing is acceptable. I’ve outlined my reasons for why that is dangerous and unacceptable and you just throw up your hands and say it must happen because it’s happening. (Did you notice how you went from “solution” to “outcome” and then back to “solution”? People are decrying the “outcome” because it’s a shit “solution”. Yes, it seems we are talking past each other.)
        aydyn 1y ago
        > Did you notice how you went from “solution” to “outcome” and then back to “solution”? Thats perhaps a bad habit of mine, finding synonyms as I dont like to repeat the same word in the next sentence. > Indeed, they asked for “a good faith solution to the problem other than just letting them all stay here forever” and I explicitly said I did not have this. I also see them and you saying “someone” should come up with a solution and, failing to find one yourselves, say deportation without any court hearing is acceptable. So on the other side "just letting them all stay here forever" is also an unacceptable solution. So what then? There's no acceptable solution we are just screwed?
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
        > So on the other side "just letting them all stay here forever" is also an unacceptable solution. This is a false dichotomy and a false equivalence. I’ll let you figure out what that means.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Oh in that case, I have a solution! We simply deport anyone who makes the argument he's making, then there's no more problem. Wait just a minute... that's not a valid solution under our laws at all!
    - aydyn 1y ago
      You don't get to decide what constitutes "American interests." [sic]
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        What
        aydyn 1y ago
        You dont recognize your very own words?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        > Have you ever used copilot? Its Garbage with a capital G [sic] Haha! Gotcha! You don't recognize your own words?! Oh no I do, but my words made sense in the context I wrote them. They don't make sense here. It turns out words have meanings, and you can't generally copy/paste little substrings from one conversation into another haphazardly. Feel free to connect the dots between what I said and your response, if you'd like.
        aydyn 1y ago
        Oh yes words have meaning, some people can understand them.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        I guess I'll just assume there was no connection to be drawn. It's truly amazing how all the "curious" "just asking questions" types cannot get literally 3 exchanges into a conversation without short circuiting.
wredcoll 1y ago
>You are ignoring the fact that the previous admin ignored due process for letting them in in the first place We thought you were kidding, this isn't a fact, it's the complete opposite of a fact, in otherwords, a lie. Very famously the number of arrests of people cross the border went up while biden was president. Aside from that ludicrous lie, we have to evaluate the situation where we actually live. If there was a literal magic genie who could cause 10 million people to instantly teleport then maybe we could talk about it, but there isn't, so we don't. In actual reality land, spending 100 billion dollars in order to arrest and deport millions of people who work and pay taxes and in general support the economy of this country is hilariously stupid. Also evil, lets not forget that. Every axis you want to try to evaluate this on fails at the most cursory examination. Obviously it's a waste of money because you're spending money to remove tax payers and consumers, so that's a double negative. It's also immoral due to the sheer amount of crimes and human rights violations that have already taken place and will continue to take place. It's not even particularly effective as some kind of macho statement, deporting your own citizens isn't going to impress anyone.
tpm 1y ago
> We can make laws and change systems, a serious good faith solution would be to propose changes to the due process No, a serious good faith solution would be to establish an actual working immigration/citizenship system with clear rules and then enforce them, because the current situation endangers everyone. I'm from a different country. We have ID cards. You strictly need an ID card (or a different proof of citizenship or right to residence) from the age of 18 (or even sooner if you are attending schools, using the health system etc) to do basically anything. It's not possible to live here your whole life as a full member of the society without that. When I read how someone lives 60 years in the US without actual legal basis to do that I just shudder. People should be forced to resolve their legal situation one way or another much sooner. And I am pro-immigration, but also there should be order in that. Once you have a clear, fast proof of right to reside in a country, you don't need to touch due process because it can go fast.
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  > I'm from a different country. We have ID cards. You strictly need an ID card (or a different proof of citizenship or right to residence) from the age of 18 (or even sooner if you are attending schools, using the health system etc) to do basically anything. That's essentially how it is in the states, we have the U.S. passport and individual State's drivers licenses as the primary forms of ID. And government bureaucracy is actually notorious for requiring tons of information (two forms of government ID, and proof of residence, sometimes the literal SS card or birth certificate itself) that everyone inevitability ends up running into an issue with forgetting some document at least once in their lives. > It's not possible to live here your whole life as a full member of the society without that. It's not really possible here either, even private companies usually require it in some way or another (such as LinkedIn[0]). The issue is illegal immigrants simply forego these things, or work for companies and live in blue states that don't check any form of ID in the majority of places, on purpose (such as when citizens vote in the presidential election, which is still insane to me) > Once you have a clear, fast proof of right to reside in a country, you don't need to touch due process because it can go fast. Well, once you have the undocumented migrants inside your borders, how are you supposed to get rid of them other than how the current administration has been attempting to (utilizing private intelligence and beefing up ICE)? [0] https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a1342692 https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a1342692
dummydummy1234 1y ago
Aka hire more judges. This bill did not do that.

by Dig1t 1y ago

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago

> a serious good faith solution You are free to offer something yourself. I was answering your question: > Do you have a proposed solution other than decades worth of court dates? No, I don’t. At least, not one that doesn’t degrade rule of law. I’m all ears for better solutions but this shit I’m seeing ain’t it.

aydyn 1y ago
It kind of sounds like you need to offer a solution not him. Because his side did come up with a solution and are implementing it.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  Some people start abducting anyone off the streets and it’s called a “solution” so other people who don’t like it need to shut up or offer a better one? Well, we are each entitled to our opinion and I don’t agree with that one. Anyway, here’s a better solution: let them stay. I can’t see how that would be nearly as bad as this. For me personally, for my neighbors, for the rust belt, indeed for anybody except those wanting to abuse power.
  - aydyn 1y ago
    I think this conversation is very clearly people speaking past each other. Let's reset. They are asking for a solution that is realistic. Something that is happening right now is, by definition, a realistic outcome. "Let everyone stay" is not a realistic solution for obvious reasons.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
      > They are asking for a solution that is realistic. Indeed, they asked for “a good faith solution to the problem other than just letting them all stay here forever” and I explicitly said I did not have this. I also see them and you saying “someone” should come up with a solution and, failing to find one yourselves, say deportation without any court hearing is acceptable. I’ve outlined my reasons for why that is dangerous and unacceptable and you just throw up your hands and say it must happen because it’s happening. (Did you notice how you went from “solution” to “outcome” and then back to “solution”? People are decrying the “outcome” because it’s a shit “solution”. Yes, it seems we are talking past each other.)
      - aydyn 1y ago
        > Did you notice how you went from “solution” to “outcome” and then back to “solution”? Thats perhaps a bad habit of mine, finding synonyms as I dont like to repeat the same word in the next sentence. > Indeed, they asked for “a good faith solution to the problem other than just letting them all stay here forever” and I explicitly said I did not have this. I also see them and you saying “someone” should come up with a solution and, failing to find one yourselves, say deportation without any court hearing is acceptable. So on the other side "just letting them all stay here forever" is also an unacceptable solution. So what then? There's no acceptable solution we are just screwed?
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
        > So on the other side "just letting them all stay here forever" is also an unacceptable solution. This is a false dichotomy and a false equivalence. I’ll let you figure out what that means.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Oh in that case, I have a solution! We simply deport anyone who makes the argument he's making, then there's no more problem. Wait just a minute... that's not a valid solution under our laws at all!
  - aydyn 1y ago
    You don't get to decide what constitutes "American interests." [sic]
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      What
      - aydyn 1y ago
        You dont recognize your very own words?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        > Have you ever used copilot? Its Garbage with a capital G [sic] Haha! Gotcha! You don't recognize your own words?! Oh no I do, but my words made sense in the context I wrote them. They don't make sense here. It turns out words have meanings, and you can't generally copy/paste little substrings from one conversation into another haphazardly. Feel free to connect the dots between what I said and your response, if you'd like.
        aydyn 1y ago
        Oh yes words have meaning, some people can understand them.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        I guess I'll just assume there was no connection to be drawn. It's truly amazing how all the "curious" "just asking questions" types cannot get literally 3 exchanges into a conversation without short circuiting.

wredcoll 1y ago

>You are ignoring the fact that the previous admin ignored due process for letting them in in the first place We thought you were kidding, this isn't a fact, it's the complete opposite of a fact, in otherwords, a lie. Very famously the number of arrests of people cross the border went up while biden was president. Aside from that ludicrous lie, we have to evaluate the situation where we actually live. If there was a literal magic genie who could cause 10 million people to instantly teleport then maybe we could talk about it, but there isn't, so we don't. In actual reality land, spending 100 billion dollars in order to arrest and deport millions of people who work and pay taxes and in general support the economy of this country is hilariously stupid. Also evil, lets not forget that. Every axis you want to try to evaluate this on fails at the most cursory examination. Obviously it's a waste of money because you're spending money to remove tax payers and consumers, so that's a double negative. It's also immoral due to the sheer amount of crimes and human rights violations that have already taken place and will continue to take place. It's not even particularly effective as some kind of macho statement, deporting your own citizens isn't going to impress anyone.

tpm 1y ago

> We can make laws and change systems, a serious good faith solution would be to propose changes to the due process No, a serious good faith solution would be to establish an actual working immigration/citizenship system with clear rules and then enforce them, because the current situation endangers everyone. I'm from a different country. We have ID cards. You strictly need an ID card (or a different proof of citizenship or right to residence) from the age of 18 (or even sooner if you are attending schools, using the health system etc) to do basically anything. It's not possible to live here your whole life as a full member of the society without that. When I read how someone lives 60 years in the US without actual legal basis to do that I just shudder. People should be forced to resolve their legal situation one way or another much sooner. And I am pro-immigration, but also there should be order in that. Once you have a clear, fast proof of right to reside in a country, you don't need to touch due process because it can go fast.

DaSHacka 1y ago
> I'm from a different country. We have ID cards. You strictly need an ID card (or a different proof of citizenship or right to residence) from the age of 18 (or even sooner if you are attending schools, using the health system etc) to do basically anything. That's essentially how it is in the states, we have the U.S. passport and individual State's drivers licenses as the primary forms of ID. And government bureaucracy is actually notorious for requiring tons of information (two forms of government ID, and proof of residence, sometimes the literal SS card or birth certificate itself) that everyone inevitability ends up running into an issue with forgetting some document at least once in their lives. > It's not possible to live here your whole life as a full member of the society without that. It's not really possible here either, even private companies usually require it in some way or another (such as LinkedIn[0]). The issue is illegal immigrants simply forego these things, or work for companies and live in blue states that don't check any form of ID in the majority of places, on purpose (such as when citizens vote in the presidential election, which is still insane to me) > Once you have a clear, fast proof of right to reside in a country, you don't need to touch due process because it can go fast. Well, once you have the undocumented migrants inside your borders, how are you supposed to get rid of them other than how the current administration has been attempting to (utilizing private intelligence and beefing up ICE)? [0] https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a1342692 https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a1342692

dummydummy1234 1y ago

Aka hire more judges. This bill did not do that.